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#1592 - 01/30/05 12:23 AM 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
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Does this say that if the installer uses encapsulated Rebar in a pool 680.26(B)(1) that the alternative means is a 12" square grid of #8 with a clamp at every intersection?? That will bump up the price of a pool a bit

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#1593 - 01/30/05 07:30 AM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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I think we need to know what code year you are looking at 2002 or 2005 before your question can be answered properly. See there are changes in the 2005.
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Michael J Timpanaro
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#1594 - 01/30/05 02:25 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Bryan Holland Offline

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I have read through all the ROP and ROC submissions related to this section and it does appear to require what you have posted. The wording in the 2002 NEC, section 680.26(B), "provisions shall be made for an alternative means..." didn't provide any assistance on what that alternate means can be. It appears the new 680.26(C)(3)(b) spells it out.
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#1595 - 01/30/05 07:48 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
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Mike, 2005
Bryan that is what I seem to get out of it. It appears this is a defacto ban on encapsulated rebar in a pool, not that I have ever seen any.
Nobody is going to sister the rebar with 8ga copper. joined at every intersection. They don't even tie the rebar at every intersection.

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#1596 - 01/30/05 08:06 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
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BTW if this IS what is says will we start requiring the #8 copper grid in fibermesh decks within 3' of the water?

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#1597 - 02/03/05 09:07 AM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Not exactly. The use of the alternative means (field-fabricated bonding grid) to establish the equipotential bonding grid to extend under the deck constructed by paved walking surfaces as established in 680.26(c)(3), is only required when the deck is not constructed with poured concrete, wire mesh, and unencapsulated reinforcing steel.
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Michael J Timpanaro
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Florida




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#1598 - 02/03/05 10:45 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
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Mike, I haven't seen any steel in a residential slab in years (other than MY house). They just use fiber mesh concrete. That includes pool decks.

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#1599 - 02/04/05 12:55 AM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
Unregistered


The more I read 680.26(C) the more it sounds like this #8 copper grid even has to go out under a brick paver deck. That will certainly be a surprise to pool installers.
If it is concrete they can just put a 3' band of 6x6 wire under it, bonded with a #8 to the pool shell steel but brick pavers are still "paving" and they get laid on compacted sand. Will they need the copper grid in that sand? 680.26(C)(3)(c)

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#1600 - 02/04/05 06:28 AM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Yes that is correct, if you use concrete with the wire mesh that can be connected to the pool shell steel you’re good to go.

The alternate method is used when the paved walking surface doesn't have anything in it to bond to form the equipotential plane, like fibercreet or brick pavers.
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Michael J Timpanaro
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Florida




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#1601 - 02/04/05 06:37 AM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Also just as a side point, in the 2002 code a copper #8 solid conductor was permitted to be used for the bonding grid per 680.26(c)(3) as the alternate means per 680.26(b)(1) when the rebar is encapsulated.

That has been removed and it is no longer permitted in the 2005 code to be used as the bonding grid.
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Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#1602 - 02/04/05 11:40 AM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
Unregistered


There are a lot of pool contractors and inspectors who have a surprise coming if this really is to be enforced. It will probably add $1000 to the price of a pool.

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#1603 - 02/04/05 11:56 AM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Personally I can't wait to see the first contractor have to make one of those alternate grid methods. I want pictures.
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Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#1604 - 02/04/05 01:49 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
Unregistered


If this really sticks, as written, I expect a copper wire manufacturer will come up with a 3' wide mesh 12x of #8, welded at the intersections like regular 6x concrete wire. That is the easiest way I can see to make the grid under pavers. Pool contractors like pavers because they don't have to worry about compacting the backfill as much. If they get a sinkhole in a paver deck, a laborer with a shovel and a wheelbarrow can fix it. If a concrete deck sinks you got big problems.

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#1605 - 02/04/05 02:34 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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I think you are correct, I don't think it would be cost effectve for a contractor to make one of those.
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Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#1606 - 02/04/05 03:21 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is the kind of thing that should be settled before we jump out there and adopt the 05 code. If this is really what the article means we should allow the marketplace <nationally> to provide the product before we require the use.
Actually there may already be something that will work but it is only fair that the contractors get a heads up. Bids will be affected by the cost of this product or whatever work around that is approved by the AHJ. I do find it interesting that rusty old rebar can be snap tied together at varying unspecified intervals but copper must use a listed connector or be welded at EVERY intersection. Personally I would accept a grid tied with #12cu at every intersection, particularly if this was embedded in concrete.

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#1607 - 03/14/05 03:03 PM Re: 680.26(C)(3)(b)
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Sorry but I was wrong ....it does have something to do with the pool construction as well. This requirement applies to pools constructed with encapsulated rebar as well as fiberglass pools.

After some more research the alternate means to install the below grade grid shall be secured within or under the pool and deck media, per 68026(c)(3)(c).

This will require the bonding grid to cover the under outline contour of a fiberglass pool or pool constructed with encapsulated rebar and deck with paved walking surfaces extending 3ft form the inside wall of the pool wall.
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Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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