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#2281 - 02/22/06 01:03 PM Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
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I think we are going to start hearing about this soon. A guy got killed last year in Lake County because the steel was energized. I can't find any details but he was an appliance guy so I am guessing he was hooking up the dryer vent to an energized vent box in the wall.
Of course they are suing everyone in sight, including the LC building department.
I think an occasional metal box in each isolated section of framing, bonded to the framing would work but to be code compliant it would need to be bonded with a 250.66 conductor 250.104(C) attached with a nut and bolt (not sheet metal screw)

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#2282 - 02/23/06 06:14 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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We've thrown this issue around a few times in our office and at the local IAEI meeting. The code clearly doesn't require bonding of non-structural metal not exposed.

The FPN note to 250.116 indicates the added safety that could come from bonding of the metal studding and framming in a building but we all know FPN's are not enforceable and noone will ever agree what "may become energized" constitutes.
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#2283 - 02/23/06 06:20 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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I wrote a code proposal to bond metal studs for the 2008 NEC when I worked for Lake County. Also a code amendment for Florida was put in and already approved by the Electrical Tack Committee and on its way to the Building Commission for approval in May. If approved by the Building Commission it will be a change to the FBC and effective in November with all the glitch amendments.
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#2284 - 02/23/06 02:27 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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I think this is possibly a good idea, except I can't figure out how it would be complied with?

Many of the homes I see built here have multiple metal sections not interconnected. Would each of these sections require bonding? And considering each stud is attached by means of a sheet metal screw, wouldn't also violate 250.8 for bonding of each component of a wall or section?

Too many questions on this ??????
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#2285 - 02/23/06 02:39 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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Heres the story from "Local 6."

http://www.local6.com/money/7302637/detail.html
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#2286 - 02/23/06 03:24 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
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I think if we just required at least one metal box on the largest circuit in each isolated metal framing section, nut and bolt connected to the steel we would meet the objective of the code (the EGC of the circuit likely to energize...)
I think it is unreasonable to say this is "not exposed metal". As we saw in Clermont the dryer vent can is connected to the metal framing and exposed. The same is true of the medicine cabinet, also energized in that house. I can't think of a worse place to have energized metal.
You also have the possibility of metal door frames and window frames being energized. I think the reason we have not seen more of these incidents is we do usually end up bonding something attached to the framing somewhere, even if somewhat accidentally but it is not a certainty.
If you really enforced 250.104(C) you will end up with a 250.66 bonding jumper.
We have the "tombstone" necessary to get the government to act so I bet it happens.

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#2287 - 02/23/06 03:30 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
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Bryan, as for your "sheet metal screw" issue, the rule says the bonding jumper can't be installed with sheet metal screws, not that the entire assembly can't be put together with them. Screen cages have lots of joints held together with SM screws and we are happy to think they are bonded OK as long as we "through bolt" the lug.

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#2288 - 02/23/06 04:46 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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Someone will probably invent a metal box that will clip to a metal stud and self-ground.
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#2289 - 02/24/06 07:06 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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I do not agree! The use of sheet metal screws in 250.8 is as follows:
Quote:
Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors to enclosures .
250.8 does not apply to using sheet metal screws to attach lugs to metal framing at screen rooms for pool bonding, or the connection of boxes to metal studs etc...

This was put into the code because some were using the sheet metal mounting screws on metal handy boxes, and 4" sq boxes, as well as wiring gutters, and panel enclosures to attach the grounding conductor, instead of using the threaded grounding hole and machine screw as required.

So can the metal box be attached to a metal stud with sheet metal screws? Yes!

Can a pool bonding lug be attached to the metal framing on a screen room with a sheet metal screw? Yes!

250.8 does not apply!
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#2290 - 02/24/06 11:28 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
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Lee County won't let you bond a screen cage with a self drilling screw. Maybe it is because it is called a "Pool Screen Enclosure" on the plan. ;-)

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#2291 - 02/24/06 01:46 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
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"Can a pool bonding lug be attached to the metal framing on a screen room with a sheet metal screw? Yes!"

"250.8 does not apply!"

Agree on the code that you cite but Nick says that he doesn't allow pool bonding lugs to be attached to the structural members of a screen room with a sheet metal screw, and this weekend I will find the code for that.


By the way, Mike, congratulations on this new code language. It was none other than our Mike Timpanero that introduced the code language that will require the bonding of the metal studs!
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#2292 - 02/25/06 01:54 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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This section 250-8 came into the code in 1999! If you read the handbook commentary along with the pictures you will get the understanding that this code section applies to attaching EGC to equipment.

For a new reference check the 2005 handbook and commentary because there is a new change in that section, along with the 2005 IAEI Analysis.
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Michael J Timpanaro
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#2293 - 02/25/06 01:57 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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I know, I'm not disagreeing with you. We are up too late talkin electric. I'm going to bed.
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#2294 - 02/25/06 07:27 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Oh and by the way...if you were correct and a sheet metal screw can't be used like you say... I hope you are making them attach with bolts a bonding jumper around every framing member joint since the framing is all attached to each other with SM screws.

You see if what you say is correct than all you bonded was that one stud.
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#2295 - 02/25/06 11:55 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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How did this get turned into a pool cage topic?

Don't agree with you on the pool cage. The structural members of the cage do not attach one to another using only 1 sheet metal screw. As you know, they are bracketed together using plates with a number of sheet metal screws on each plate. It is structurally sound (at least it is supposed to be) to withstand wind speed so that fact in and of itself would make a good connection from one member to the next.

We ran statistical data back when I was a chief electrical inspector and found out that red tags were generated about 50% of the time for "screen cage lug is loose." A sheet metal screw on a pool cage lug just simply doesn't make a good connection.

But anyway, I think the appropriate code when talking about the pool cage is in 680, which would be 680.26(D) which then kicks you back into 250.8. To eliminate a voltage gradient in the pool area (to keep everything at the same potential), there has to be an effective path between all parts that are bonded together and, like I said, the sheet metal screw just simply doesn't make a good connection....


smile
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#2296 - 02/26/06 06:09 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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This has nothing to do with 680 at all. All I say is that 250.8 doesn't apply at all. You can't fail somebody with a code section that doesn't apply to what the installation is.

250.8 was put into the code in 99 because up north for GFCI receptalces in garages and basements, a furring strip was nailed on the block wall, the NM cable was stapled on the face of the furring strip, a metal handy box or 4" sq. was mounted to the furring strip with SM screws and the EGC was wrapped around the SM Screw.

250.8 has nothing to do with using a SM screw to mount a metal box, or a lug to a metal framming member.
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#2297 - 02/27/06 05:57 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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The problem is that you can't make a good connection with a sheet metal screw. There is no way to torque it down properly. Every lug I have seen attached by means of a sheet metal screw was completely loose.

Those that bolt the connection have a much more secure installation. Though it doesn't exactly apply, 680.26(D) indicates 250.8 is a consideration for equipotential bonding connections.
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#2298 - 02/27/06 08:22 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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A SM screw installed properly will work just fine. With 35 years as a trade electrician I have done it many times. If you drill the proper size pilot hole the SM screw will cut in and will not be loose. When you use the self tapping SM screws that most guys use, you are correct it is difficult to torque it up cause the hole is cut to large.

Electricians now-a-days don't take the time to do things the way we did them years ago..they don't have the same pride in their work.

The only point I am trying to make is that 250.8 does not prohibit the use of a SM screw to attach a box or a lug to a framing member.
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Michael J Timpanaro
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#2299 - 02/27/06 10:07 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Timpanaro:

Electricians now-a-days don't take the time to do things the way we did them years ago..they don't have the same pride in their work.

This is the key point of the statement. I am currently finding this connection not being made by electricians at all. In many cases, we are told the cage installers made the connection. eek
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#2300 - 02/27/06 03:40 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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You are correct!
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#2301 - 02/28/06 10:38 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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I just found the proposed modifcation this morning www.floridabuilding.org. You can comment on this and any other proposals until April 8th. Here's how it reads,

Quote:
Bonding Metal Framing Members:
Metal framing members. Metal framing members shall be bonded to the equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that may energize the framing and be sized in accordance with the National Electric Code Table 250.122. For the purpose of this section, a grounded metal outlet box attached to the framing shall be permitted.
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#2302 - 03/01/06 09:09 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm glad they chose the "circuit that may energize..." language instead of 250.104(C).

A few metal or otherwise "bonding" boxes (particularly on the range, water heater and dryer circuits) would work for me.
Then you are just looking for isolated sections of wall.

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#2303 - 03/02/06 06:16 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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By the way, there is a comment against the proposal. The comment suggested that the cost would be excessive and would not be as effective as indicated by the proposal.

I think it would be a good idea for as many pro and con comments for the commission to work with. I plan on commenting before April 8th.
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#2304 - 03/02/06 08:50 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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2 or 3 metal boxes is an excessive cost? I thought the cost of the appliance installers life was more costly!
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Michael J Timpanaro
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Florida




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#2305 - 03/02/06 09:26 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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I'm just curious as to what organization, agency, or individual submitted the comment against the proposal. Do they have any electrical knowledge or background?
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#2306 - 03/03/06 06:15 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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The comment was made by a PE as follows:

Quote:
The proposed change to the FBC will result in an onerous, expensive and unwarranted additional regulation.

It is unfortunate that someone has been electrocuted due to a wire in contact with a metal framing member. Had existing building regulations been followed – specifically, National Electrical Code (NEC) Article 300.4(B)(1) that requires listed bushings or grommets where cable passes through holes in metal framing – the incident would not have occurred. This requirement was new to the 2002 NEC but there has been a requirement in the code for some time to adequately protect wiring subject to damage. Cables passing through such metal studs are unlikely to be damaged and short to the metal, and hence are unlikely to cause an electrocution type accident.

The NEC in Article 250.110 requires only exposed equipment likely to become energized to be grounded. Metal framing members are neither exposed nor likely to become energized.

A. Impact to local entity relative to enforcement of code:
I disagree with the submitter’s statement that the change has no impact. The existence of bushings/grommets around conductors in a stud wall is easily visually verified. To detect the proper bonding of each and every stud will require the physical handling of every connection to determine that it conforms to code requirements for bonding. Note that sheet metal screws are in general not acceptable for such bonding. A more substantial method is required.

B. Impact to building and property owners relative to cost of compliance with code:
I disagree with the submitter’s negligent cost statement. The additional wire of similar size to the power conductors – already a minimum of 2 conductors plus ground – would raise the material cost by at least 10%. The connection material at each stud plus its installation cost would substantially raise the cost of wiring a dwelling.

C. Impact to industry relative to cost of compliance with code:
I disagree with the submitter’s negligent cost statement. See B above.

Rationale [Provide an explanation of why you would like this Proposed Modification to the Florida Building Code.]:
Bonding of metal framing members already protected from inadvertent energization is an unwarranted belt and suspenders approach to safety.

Please explain how the proposed modification meets the following requirements:
1. Has a reasonable and substantial connection with the health, safety, and welfare of the general public:
No regulation will prevent all accidental electrocutions. The enforcement of existing code provisions provides a reasonable and practical degree of safety that should safeguard persons and property from the electrical hazard alleged here. Florida is not unique in the state’s use of metal framing members.

2. Strengthens or improves the code, and provides equivalent or better products, methods, or systems of construction:
The NEC rules provide reasonable provisions for minimizing the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock. In this case, this nationally recognized standard needs no improvement or strengthening.
I don't think the reference to 300.4(B)(1) is accurate. This was not the case. I believe these were cables running parallel with the studs. He does bring up the sheet metal screw issue...
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#2307 - 03/03/06 06:42 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
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Bryan who is this guy? Wherever you are getting this information, does it list his name and contact info? Please post it if so. Thanks.
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#2308 - 03/03/06 06:48 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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#2309 - 03/03/06 06:54 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
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I still can't see a name or contact info, or a link to even see the comment.
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#2310 - 03/03/06 10:07 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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When you click on the link above, you then click on the link under the heading "FILE". Here it is anyway:


Name: Thomas F. Mueller, PE
Address: 715 Lexington Road, Birmingham, Al. 35216
E-mail: tfmuell@aol.com
Phone: 205-823-4186
Fax:
Code: FBC-B
Section #: Chapter 27
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#2311 - 03/03/06 10:34 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


It is clear that the comment does not refer to the accident in Clermont. That was caused by a drywall screw strike.
If we use the logic that if nobody makes a mistake, things are safe, we could throw away most of the NEC. Most bonding is there BECAUSE people make mistakes.

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#2312 - 03/03/06 11:25 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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There are typically only 3 ways to ensure protection against electrical shock. Isolation, insulation, and protective devices.

Metal studs obviously eliminates the possibility of insulation. Isolation may be a possible option. Instead of permitting the NM cable to be directly secured and attached to the metal studding, perhaps it should be separated by an approved means like stand-offs. If the cable can be kept completely isolated from the metal studs by separation, the possibility of screw or nail penetration is much less likely.

Perhaps this could be used in conjunction with the required bonding of the metal portions of the structure. You would then have at least two of the three typical protective methods.
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#2313 - 03/03/06 01:15 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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Off of the Alabama State Board of Licensure for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors:


"NO RECORDS WERE FOUND MATCHING YOUR REQUEST."


I guess I should try Florida as well...
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#2314 - 03/03/06 01:27 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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Ah, he IS a licensed PE in Florida.

More info:
His license number is 56504, and it is active.

But he did not test in Florida. He was licensed by endorsement, which means basically that he applied to the engineers board and got the license without taking the test here. The modifier he selected was "electrical."

I always like to check the credentials. Just a habit that I have.
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#2315 - 03/03/06 01:49 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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I wonder what interest group or entity he represents or do you think these are his personal feelings?
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#2316 - 03/03/06 03:12 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
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I'm not really sure.
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#2317 - 03/20/06 10:58 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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We have had a similar incident take place here this past Friday. One of the BI's was performing an inspection and claimed to receive a shock from the air handler case. He contacted the electrical inspector for that area (not me) whom immediately went to investigate. Upon examination, nothing looked to be a problem; however he received a reading of 120V between the a/c copper line and the air handler case.

The contractor was called and found the metal stud wall energized which thus energized the A/C copper line in contact with the wall section. The culprit was a 2½" dry wall screw through a 14/3 cable.
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#2318 - 03/20/06 06:31 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Yes it is a problem that happens often. More than we know about.

And the electrical tack had the engineers comment before the code section was approved by them. They said he addressed items that had nothing to do with the issue, so his comment was not correct.
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Florida




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#2319 - 04/01/06 10:20 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
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Going back to this:


Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Timpanaro:
I do not agree! The use of sheet metal screws in 250.8 is as follows:
Quote:
Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors to [b]enclosures .
250.8 does not apply to using sheet metal screws to attach lugs to metal framing at screen rooms for pool bonding, or the connection of boxes to metal studs etc...

This was put into the code because some were using the sheet metal mounting screws on metal handy boxes, and 4" sq boxes, as well as wiring gutters, and panel enclosures to attach the grounding conductor, instead of using the threaded grounding hole and machine screw as required.

So can the metal box be attached to a metal stud with sheet metal screws? Yes!

Can a pool bonding lug be attached to the metal framing on a screen room with a sheet metal screw? Yes!

250.8 does not apply! [/b]
.
.
.
250.8:

This seems to be up to interpretation. Take a look at IAEI mag, March/April issue [a $14.95 value] on page 74. Under "Code Violations" it shows a lug attached to a metal enclosure using a sheet metal screw, and this is listed as a 250.8 violation. So it seems that even though the sheet metal screw doesn't directly attach the ECG to the enclosure, it still "attaches" it (a link in the chain) to the enclosure.


confused
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#2320 - 04/16/06 07:24 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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The IAEI Mag is wrong! Look at the code change, look at the proposal, look at the pictures and commentary in the Handbook. It's very clear, there is nothing to interpret. Just need to read what the code says and not add personal opinions. That's why we have so many problems in Florida. Way to much "thats the way I like it" bunk.
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#2321 - 04/17/06 11:18 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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Mike,

What method would not be an approved means to attach the bonding lug to the pool cage? Would cable-tying the lug to the cage be acceptable?

At what point is it acceptable to draw a line and permit some methods and not others?
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#2322 - 04/17/06 01:13 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


In a practical sense, it really makes more difference where a lug is attached than which type of screw you use. If you "through bolt" the lug on a 1x2 bottom rail you still have the problem that this is an inverted "C" shape that can be deformed and you lose the bonding strength. If you used a self drilling screw through the thinner side wall of a 2x2 member you won't have much metal to bite into. If you use a self drilling screw in the doubled edge of a 2 part framing member there is a lot of metal for the screw to bite into and you would get a pretty good bond. If you can get into the receiver channel that holds down a 3x3x1/8" thick structural post with a self drilling screw, catching both members you have a very good bond. (
Simply using a nut and bolt, on a hollow member, does not guarantee it will stay tight since you are pinching 2" of air. Best case would be through bolting a single layer of the hollow member before the cage is assembled but that might require another inspection if you really want to see that nut.
At my house I have my cage bonded to pool/deck steel at 6 points around the perimeter, using a mix of the above methods.

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#2323 - 04/18/06 04:00 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Ok lets go back to the beginning, all I said is that you can't fail someone for using a SM screw to attach a bonding conductor or metal outlet box to a framing member because 250.8 doesn't prohibit it, or address that application.

It only applies to the attachment of a EGC to a metal outlet box or enclosure. (Electrical boxes, wiring gutters, panelboxes, meter sockets, etc.).
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#2324 - 04/18/06 08:08 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
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Mike, I am in agreement with you mostly but not 100% on this. Maybe about 78%. I remember exactly when that code came out, and it was created because of people bonding metal boxes with a sheet metal screw. Totally agree just like you said.

The thing that is bugging me here is the "intent" behind the code change. If the sheet metal screw was not good to make the connection, then why would it be good to make a connection elsewhere, say, for a lug?

I would be interested on the CMP's present comments about this issue, especially in light of the magazine picture.

I have to admit that if I saw a really bad connection (not on an enclosure) and it was a sheet metal screw and a lug, I might pull that code article on the contractor to get the item corrected.

Maybe this needs to be addressed somehow. Maybe a few words need to be added,

NEC (Nick Electrical Code)
250.85:
(Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors to enclosures or any metal surface...)

Then the intent in the original code change would carry throughout the rest of the code.
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#2325 - 04/19/06 03:17 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Ok lets forget about the SM screw for a second, and say the bonding conductor lug is attached with a 1/4-20 bolt and nut, but its loose. What code section would you use to fail the job for the loose connection?
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#2326 - 04/19/06 03:30 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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110.14(A)


smile
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#2327 - 04/19/06 09:27 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
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250.4(A)(4)

"finger check"

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#2328 - 04/20/06 11:07 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Ok now that's my point!

Why fail something with a code section that doesn't apply (250.8), when we have code sections as you have noted, that can be applied for that specific problem!
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#2329 - 04/22/06 03:09 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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I knew you were going to say that. I don't think that's the point.

Since the rationale for the original code in question is that the conductor does not make a good connection via a sheet metal screw, to the box. So why would it make a good connection anywhere else?

I want a code that I can use when a sheet metal screw attaches a lug to an enclosure. I can throw your question back to you but in reverse:

What code section would you use to fail the job, for a tight connection of a sheet metal screw to a lug?
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#2330 - 04/23/06 07:05 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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The original idea was not only because of a bad connection to the box...it was also that they were using the mounting screws for connection instead of the listed method...ground screws, clips, bonding straps, etc.

There is no code section for that....but than if it's tight there is no problem. And they can be installed tight with SM screws because I've done it.

This is new ground...need to write a proposal to revise 250.8 to include this problem....that is if my proposal for NEC 2008 is accepted and becomes a new code section. If it is not accepted than it doesn't matter since thay don't see the need to bond metal framing.
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#2331 - 04/23/06 09:40 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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Your proposal better be accepted. Is there anything we can do to support the "campaign?"
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#2332 - 04/23/06 01:36 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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It may be accepted by the Florida Building Commission as an amendment to FBC/FRC, however Proposal 5-228 regarding bonding of metal studs was rejected by all CMP5 members for the 2008 NEC.
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#2333 - 04/24/06 12:36 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Yep REJECTED...just as it was in 1999!
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#2334 - 04/26/06 08:04 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Bryan you are correct the Electrical Tack approved it but the Building Commission rejected it and I understand it will be brought up again in May. So far it's a reject all the way around for both Florida and NEC.

I guess more people have to get shocked or die before something is done about it.
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#2335 - 04/27/06 12:46 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Anonymous
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I think the tombstone count is so low because the steel does get bonded incidentally along the way. It is in those cases where it does manage to stay isolated that cause the problems. The fix may be as easy as just having one metal box in places where the steel gets exposed (by proxy), like that steel medicine cabinet in the Clermont example.

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#2336 - 04/30/06 01:19 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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100% correct.
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#2337 - 05/08/06 04:52 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Just to let you know, it was approved by the Florida Building Commission and will become a Florida admendment in October or November.
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#2338 - 05/08/06 07:42 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Nick Sasso Offline

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Victory at last!
laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
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#2339 - 05/09/06 06:05 AM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Bryan Holland Offline

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Wow! So the exact wording of the proposal will have to be inserted into Section E3303 of the FRC and Section 2704 of the FBC?
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#2340 - 05/09/06 05:14 PM Re: Bonding steel framing?
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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At this time I don't know how or where it's going...but it's going!
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Michael J Timpanaro
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Florida




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#6166 - 02/26/09 11:17 PM Re: Bonding steel framing? [Re: ]
Dick Vought Offline
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Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Ocala, Florida
I had many years ago a home owner in The Villages get a buzz form a shower valve in the guest bath because the GFI circuit home run got nicked as it was pulled through the attic, it was tie wrapped to the metal stud with the nick hitting the metal. Good thing it was a fiberglass shower!
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#6167 - 02/27/09 05:18 PM Re: Bonding steel framing? [Re: Dick Vought]
Ruben Rocha Offline
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This topic is getting quite long but you could carry this to the extreme. What about aluminum soffet and trim. Add a couple of spotlights. Plastic box with metal trim.

Then add xmas lights all over the facia.

Then rely on the bad gfi that has not been tested since 1980.

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#6168 - 02/27/09 06:28 PM Re: Bonding steel framing? [Re: Dick Vought]
Ruben Rocha Offline
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Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Originally Posted By: Dick Vought
I had many years ago a home owner in The Villages get a buzz form a shower valve in the guest bath because the GFI circuit home run got nicked as it was pulled through the attic, it was tie wrapped to the metal stud with the nick hitting the metal. Good thing it was a fiberglass shower!

If it was a cast iron or steel tub with copper plumbing it probably would of tripped the GFI or regular breaker.

So much for non conductive plumbing materials.

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#6169 - 02/28/09 01:09 AM Re: Bonding steel framing? [Re: Ruben Rocha]
gfretwell
Unregistered


Actually I would not be opposed to expanding the existing Florida FBC rule on bonding steel studs to also bonding aluminum siding, soffit etc if there is electrical wiring or other equipment installed on or through it. The real question would be "how?".
The Christmas light scenario is not as dangerous as a short to the ungrounded conductor feeding a plastic jelly jar in a plastic box. At least those Christmas lights should be on a GFCI circuit.

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