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#6363 - 06/12/09 11:47 AM 2008 NEC
Rob Barbee Offline
Mechanic Member
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Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 120
Loc: Pinellas County
Soooooooooo! smile I heard we DEFINITELY have a new code on July 1? Only 1 exclusion for GFCI prot. of a pool pump motor........anyone know where to find the facts?
_________________________
Rob
Electrical Inspector

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#6364 - 06/12/09 01:33 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Rob Barbee]
John Desjardins Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Body=NC, Head & Heart=Florida
There is no exclusion. All of the manufacturers I've looked at require it.

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#6366 - 06/12/09 01:55 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: John Desjardins]
gfretwell
Unregistered


... So we are letting the manufacturer's lawyers write our electrical code? Interesting.

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#6367 - 06/12/09 03:22 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: ]
Nick Sasso Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
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Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1451
Loc: West Palm Beach
As far as I'm concerned John hit the nail on the head.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
_________________________

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#6368 - 06/12/09 03:53 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Nick Sasso]
Nick Sasso Offline

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Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1451
Loc: West Palm Beach
I am getting information from some people who were there. They say that the vote took place and they needed either a 72% or a 75% vote (not sure which) in order to adopt that new rule. Well the vote was like 16 in favor, 7 not in favor or something like that. I was told that it was a heated argument for both sides.

We need to know who these people are that are screwing around with the NEC. We need to name names. Let the world know who they are. Does anyone have the names of the 16 members that voted that GFCI protection is NOT required for residential pool pumps? Can anyone research that and post it here?

_________________________

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#6369 - 06/12/09 04:19 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Nick Sasso]
Paul J Cameron Offline
Mechanic Member
***

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 412
Loc: Pasco County Florida
Quote:
Pump must be permanently connected to circuit. See Figures 4A, 4B, and 4C
for wiring connection diagrams. Match wire and circuit breaker sizes to correct
Fusing and Wiring Data Chart (Page 8). If other lights or appliances are
also on the same circuit, be sure to add their amp loads to pump amp load. (If
unsure how to do this or if this is confusing, consult a licensed electrician.)
Use the load circuit breaker as the master on-off switch.
Install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) in circuit; it will sense a shortcircuit
to ground and disconnect power before it becomes dangerous to pool
users. For size of GFCI required and test procedures for GFCI, see manufacturer’s
instructions.
In case of power outage, check GFCI for tripping (which will prevent normal
water circulation). Reset if necessary.

This is copied right out of the Starite pump manual and they are probably 80 per cent fo the ones used in our area.
So I guess 110.3 (B) will be used quite a bit in enforcement of this one.
_________________________
Paul Cameron
Chief Electrical Inspector
Pasco County
Past President IAEI Suncoast



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#6370 - 06/12/09 04:27 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Paul J Cameron]
Paul J Cameron Offline
Mechanic Member
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Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 412
Loc: Pasco County Florida
Nick, I presume Neil Burdick or Gene Swisher were there, I think Neil is on this site, maybe he will pipe in
_________________________
Paul Cameron
Chief Electrical Inspector
Pasco County
Past President IAEI Suncoast



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#6371 - 06/12/09 06:14 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Paul J Cameron]
Rob Barbee Offline
Mechanic Member
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Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 120
Loc: Pinellas County
Paul lives!?
_________________________
Rob
Electrical Inspector

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#6372 - 06/12/09 08:55 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Rob Barbee]
gfretwell
Unregistered


What do we do when a sump pump or freezer manufacturer says NOT to connect their pump to a GFCI?

I still don't like the idea of letting manufacturers write our codes.

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#6373 - 06/13/09 09:27 AM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: ]
John Desjardins Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Body=NC, Head & Heart=Florida
You need to remember that the Electrical Code in Florida is not the NEC it's the Florida Building Code. The NEC is the standard that the FBC uses for Electrical installations. The International Code is very big on Manufacturers Installation Instructions thus so is the FBC.
You won't see them saying don't do something that would be contrary to established safety guidelines. Their engineers and UL are a lot smarter then that. If they weren't they'd be on the Florida Building Comm.

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#6374 - 06/13/09 01:52 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: John Desjardins]
gfretwell
Unregistered


I still think it is a dangerous precedent to use a scrap of paper included in the box as your electric code. Particularly when that product may have been designed offshore and the instructions translated by someone to whom English is not their primary language.
I did like it better when the FBC took the NEC unaltered, although I still have problems with the NEC process.

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#6375 - 06/13/09 07:18 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: ]
John Desjardins Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Body=NC, Head & Heart=Florida
Originally Posted By: gfretwell
I still think it is a dangerous precedent to use a scrap of paper included in the box as your electric code. Particularly when that product may have been designed offshore and the instructions translated by someone to whom English is not their primary language.
I did like it better when the FBC took the NEC unaltered, although I still have problems with the NEC process.


You know better then that I'm sure. You meet all of the requirements.That's why it's so important, and I see this all of the time with Electricians, to not get stuck in just the NEC. It is very complex these days.

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#6376 - 06/13/09 08:46 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: John Desjardins]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
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Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Well as John has stated before and I agree with.
Even in past code cycles.
When you deal with listed equipment. The installation guideline usually takes precedence if you want to keep the listing.
Of course you could always start with the UL white book and go from there. (Shudder)

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#6377 - 06/13/09 10:19 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Ruben Rocha]
gfretwell
Unregistered


No I don't know better. We are entering a global economy where the installation instructions come in 6 languages.
As far as I know the "listing" really only says this thing will contain the fire within the wiring box when it fails and I am not sure the inspection of the instructions goes much beyond the minimum requirements to safely install the equipment for THAT series of tests.
I understand you trust companies like Pentair but what about when it is Sokitume motors?

As for listing vs safety vs 110.3(B), I only have to bring up "classified breakers" or the Ideal 65 wire nut.

There needs to be a uniform state code that goes, no matter what it is. We have enough local interpretation as it is. Stuff that is perfectly legal in "X" jurisdiction is a tag in "Y" or "Z". How can a contractor work like that? It causes a disrespect for all the codes.

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#6380 - 06/15/09 07:59 AM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: ]
Bryan Holland Offline

Secretary
*****

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 1622
Loc: City of North Port
Here is one commentary on the issue I was able to find online:

Quote:
FBC adopts 2008 NEC, exempting GFCI requirement on residential pools

FSPA President Alan Cooper, "This epitomizes what our government relations program is all about. Further, it is an excellent example of the importance of having a swimming pool contractor on the FBC."

On Tuesday the Florida Building Commission (FBC) held a final rule hearing on glitch rule 9B-3.047, which encompassed a number of proposed changes to the 2007 Florida Building Code (the code). Most important to the pool industry was the 2008 NEC discussion.

In April the FBC voted to adopt the 2008 NEC, but exempt the GFCI requirement on residential pools. However, the National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) and others received word of this action and were in attendance on Tuesday. Testimony from a NEMA representative and an electrical contractor asked the FBC to reverse their original decision and adopt the 2008 NEC in total. Representatives from FSPA and other groups provided testimony to rebut the NEMA claims and encourage the FBC to stand by their original decision.

Larry Brown, FSPA Central Florida member and electrical contractor for Mid Florida Pools, did a superb job rebutting the NEMA testimony. In addition, comments were made to the FBC by UPSA members. To sum up the discussion, Commissioner Ken Gregory spoke to his fellow Commissioners asking them to vote down a motion to adopt the 2008 NEC in its entirety. The FBC agreed with him and the testimony the pool industry provided, ultimately voting down the motion 16-6. The original decision to adopt the 2008 NEC except for the GFCI requirement on residential pools withstood.

Also note that the FBC voted to incorporate into the glitch rule the 64E-9, F.A.C., public pool code revisions.

Read this story in its entirety in the July issue of Florida Pool Pro (sm).
_________________________
Bryan P. Holland, MCP

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#6382 - 06/15/09 09:33 AM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Bryan Holland]
Nick Sasso Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
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Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1451
Loc: West Palm Beach
I'm sure he's very proud of himself.

However there is such a thing as a rule challenge (challenge to an adopted rule). In this particular case, the NEC is the minimum standard for electrical safety and the adoption of this rule makes things less safe. I don't give a hoot if there is a proposal like this in the 2011 changes, because it was probably put there by the same group of people.

Bottom line is that a person will have a lesser degree of electrical safety swimming in a residential pool than if they were to swim in a commercial pool. This rule is NOT Florida specific, in my opinion. It's just plain stupid. It is merely a watering down of the safety requirements of the NEC.

I think there would be merit if someone were to challenge the rule, to get rid of it. Reason - SAFETY.



Edited by Nick Sasso (06/15/09 09:34 AM)
_________________________

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#6384 - 06/15/09 12:18 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Nick Sasso]
gfretwell
Unregistered


I agree with the idea that Florida should accept the NEC unaltered and I also agree the GFCI is a good idea. I am only complaining about the idea that we should let whatever a manufacturer decides to suggest in his instructions should be able to trump what the code panel has decided.
Again, what do you do when someone goes "instruction shopping" and simply buys the pump that doesn't say this? (I bet there is one).
An unscrupulous person could photo shop the instructions to take out that line. If it is a "promo" part number pump (in house model) you might have real trouble proving that.
That is no way to run a building department.

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#6387 - 06/15/09 01:36 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: ]
John Desjardins Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Body=NC, Head & Heart=Florida
The manufacturers instructions only trump the Code IF they are more stringent. The Commission has messed things up. If there is a pump out there that doesn't reference the NEC or GFCI rotection ( and there isn't ) then it could be installed without GFCI protection in 1&2 family.

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#6388 - 06/15/09 02:43 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: John Desjardins]
gfretwell
Unregistered


Again you are saying the building officials of Florida are depending on manufacturers to fix/circumvent their electrical code.
It makes me so proud.

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#6389 - 06/15/09 03:07 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: John Desjardins]
Kevin Bouton Offline
New Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 1
Contractors are looking for documentation that Florida has adopted the NEC2008 effective July 1st for application of permit. Has anyone seen documentation stating the adoption is going into effect July 1st?

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#6390 - 06/15/09 04:39 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: ]
Paul J Cameron Offline
Mechanic Member
***

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 412
Loc: Pasco County Florida
Yes there is one- Hayward pumps, nothing about installing it on a GFCI.
_________________________
Paul Cameron
Chief Electrical Inspector
Pasco County
Past President IAEI Suncoast



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#6392 - 06/15/09 05:40 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Kevin Bouton]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
*****

Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Originally Posted By: Kevin Bouton
Contractors are looking for documentation that Florida has adopted the NEC2008 effective July 1st for application of permit. Has anyone seen documentation stating the adoption is going into effect July 1st?

There is always going to be some type of grace period due to the permitting process.
I would suggest they attend the local IAEI Division meetings or call their local building department.

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#6393 - 06/15/09 05:49 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Ruben Rocha]
Rob Barbee Offline
Mechanic Member
***

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 120
Loc: Pinellas County
I am not thinking of grace periods, any permit applied for on or after July 1 will need to be installed to the 2008 NEC. I did attend my IAEI meeting and found out that it had been adopted.........not that I do not trust you all - smile BUT I just want documentation that the state wants us to enforce it. Before I hang my notice signs or put big red letters on my website I just want the little ducks in a row.
_________________________
Rob
Electrical Inspector

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#6394 - 06/15/09 05:53 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Rob Barbee]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
*****

Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
He he he.
I hear you.
I would think the directive would come from the building official. Which in turn usually comes from the city/county commissioners since they usually get the notice first. crazy

When this FBC thing started the local city/counties would still vote to adopt it as a formality. Then pass it on to the building department to enforce.


Edited by Ruben Rocha (06/15/09 06:03 PM)

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#6398 - 06/15/09 06:24 PM Re: 2008 NEC [Re: Ruben Rocha]
John Desjardins Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Body=NC, Head & Heart=Florida
Paul,
If it says "in accordance with the current NEC" as of July 1, 2009 the current Code in Fl is 2008 and would require GFCI.The Manufacturer is referencing the REAL NEC and not the Florida version for his listing.Again I caution that the Electrical Code in Florida is not the NEC it's the FBC and they choose what parts of the NEC to utilize however when a manufacturere references the NEC ne meens the NFPA 70 Standard as written.

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