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#6839 - 02/03/10 12:44 PM Arc-Fault
John Belew Offline
Electrical Inspector/Plans Examiner

Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 56
Loc: Milton,FL
Does 210.12(B)require outlets in a laundry room to be Arc-Fault protected?
_________________________
John Belew
Electrical Inspector/Plans Examiner
Santa Rosa Co.
johnb@santarosa.fl.gov

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#6840 - 02/03/10 01:27 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: John Belew]
gfretwell
Unregistered


Not the way I read it, unless the "laundry" happens to be in one of the rooms listed. It would have to be T/R

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#6841 - 02/03/10 02:10 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: ]
inspector32513 Offline
Lynn Adams

Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Pensacola, FL
The laundry room is NOT included in the extensive list of rooms that require AFCI. Even if the "laundry room" is an alcove with folding doors off the hall, the receptacle for the laundry circuit would be for that room or area; and not for the hall.
_________________________
Lynn Adams
Chief Electrical Inspector, Escambia County
IAEI_Panhandle Division

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#6842 - 02/03/10 02:11 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: ]
inspector32513 Offline
Lynn Adams

Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Pensacola, FL
The laundry room is NOT included in the extensive list of rooms that require AFCI. Even if the "laundry room" is an alcove with folding doors off the hall, the receptacle for the laundry circuit would be for that room or area; and not for the hall.
_________________________
Lynn Adams
Chief Electrical Inspector, Escambia County
IAEI_Panhandle Division

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#6846 - 02/04/10 09:32 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: inspector32513]
psnorthrup Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Plant City
I have to agree, the laundry room is not required to be AFCI protected, it is not specifically identified in 210.12

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#6847 - 02/04/10 06:22 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: psnorthrup]
COTInspector Offline
Mechanic Member
*****

Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tampa, Florida
Everyone seems to overlook what the AFCI is accually protecting.
210.12(B) the last line "installed to provide protection of the branch circuit", not the appliance itself. Case in point if you use an AFCI device (if they were availiable) you would have to install a metallic raceway method to the first outlet to protect the branch circuit. Sometimes you have to look at the intent of the requirement along with the requirement itself. Some inspectors are calling the laundry area a "laundry closet", and I could see where a laundry room could fall under the "or simular room", depending on who you ask. I am not requiring the laundry circuit to be AFCI protected, but I personally think it should be required.

Just my opinions
Neal Burdick
COT Inspector

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#6848 - 02/05/10 09:26 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: COTInspector]
Paul J Cameron Offline
Mechanic Member
***

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Pasco County Florida
I agree with Neil, it should be protected,but we are getting different views in our area, some do and some don't. Laundry closet is a good example and also a hall through to the garage sometimes has a washer and dryer. At this time we are not requiring it either but some counties in our area are.
_________________________
Paul Cameron
Chief Electrical Inspector
Pasco County
Past President IAEI Suncoast



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#6849 - 02/05/10 09:45 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Paul J Cameron]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
Seems that the laundry is like the kitchen. Both areas do not require AFCI protection the way the code is written. Must be because of the area use, (appliances), that is.
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#6851 - 02/05/10 01:23 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
gfretwell
Unregistered


It is likely we are really just talking about the laundry "receptacle" anyway since the lights are probably on a circuit that serves other rooms.

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#6852 - 02/05/10 03:15 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: ]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
yep I agree.
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#6857 - 02/08/10 09:56 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
Bryan Holland Online   shocked

Secretary
*****

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 1599
Loc: City of North Port
While this is only commentary in the 2008 Handbook, it does help when trying to determine intent and making interpretations.

On page 90 of the 2008 NEC Handbook, "For the 2008 code, 210.12(B) requires that AFCI protection be provided for all 15- and 20-ampere, 120-bolt branch circuits that supply outlets (including receptacle, lighting, and other outlets: see definition of outlet in Article 100) located throughout a dwelling unit other than outlets installed in kitchens, btahrooms, unfinished basements, garages, and outdoors."
_________________________
Bryan P. Holland, MCP

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#6858 - 02/08/10 03:29 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Bryan Holland]
John Belew Offline
Electrical Inspector/Plans Examiner

Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 56
Loc: Milton,FL
That commentary in the Handbook is why I asked the question. We are going to discuss it at our monthly meeting on the 18th and try to get everyone on the same page. I also asked that question to Building Officials Association of Florida and hope to get a responce soon. I will post it when I get it.
_________________________
John Belew
Electrical Inspector/Plans Examiner
Santa Rosa Co.
johnb@santarosa.fl.gov

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#6861 - 02/10/10 11:01 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Bryan Holland]
Paul J Cameron Offline
Mechanic Member
***

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Pasco County Florida
Bryan, This makes it harder not to include the laundry room, How are you seeing it??
_________________________
Paul Cameron
Chief Electrical Inspector
Pasco County
Past President IAEI Suncoast



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#6864 - 02/10/10 04:41 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Paul J Cameron]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
Well if you include the laundry, than you have to include the kitchen, garage, outside outlets, etc...and they are also not included in the group as listed in 210.12. Just because they omitted the laundry in that commentary I don't believe that was to require it to be AFCI protected.

Quote:
"other than outlets installed in kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, garages, and outdoors."


I think the term "outlet" was put into 210.12 so we understood that the requirement for AFCI protection was not just for receptacles or lighting but for other outlets like smoke detectors.
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#6868 - 02/11/10 09:31 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
psnorthrup Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Plant City
Here's just a thought, it looks like IAEI's position(according to the Analysis of Changes published by IAEI) is that " areas or rooms not specifically identified in this section" are the exceptions, What say you

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#6872 - 02/11/10 02:31 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: psnorthrup]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
I agree!
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#6873 - 02/11/10 04:30 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
Bryan Holland Online   shocked

Secretary
*****

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 1599
Loc: City of North Port
I agree as well. A few related proposals for the 2011 NEC show some of the CMP intent:

Quote:
2-166 Log #676 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.12(B))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Ray C. Mullin, Ray C. Mullin Books
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
210.12 Arc-fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch
circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling units family rooms, dining
rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a
listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide
protection of the branch circuit.
Exception No. 1: Exempt from (B) are 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling units that are
required to have GFCI protection as stipulated in 210.8(A).
Note: It shall be permitted to provide both AFCI and GFCI protection for 120-
volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed
in dwelling units.
Exception No. 2: Insert current Exception No. 1.
Exception No. 3: Insert current Exception No. 2.
Substantiation: There is much confusion in the interpretation of 210.12(B).
Down the road, AFCI and GFCI devices will become available in many types.
The “Laundry list” of rooms really does not cover all types of rooms that come
under many different names.
My proposal is quite simple to understand and enforce.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The list of rooms is consistent and easy to understand since
it was based on a similar list in NEC 210.52(A). The submitter’s claim that
AFCI protection is not required where GFCI protection is required is
inaccurate. AFCI protection and GFCI protection are two independent
protections that accomplish two different objectives. AFCI protection is for
protection from fire ignition for the branch circuit. GFCI protection is for
protection from electrocution. Currently, there are areas of the dwelling that
would require both forms of protection - one example is a wet bar located
within a den or family room. The receptacles within 6 ft of the wet bar must
have GFCI protection and the circuits supplying all outlets in the room must
have AFCI protection. The panel does not agree that the current provisions are
confusing - branch circuits supplying outlets in the rooms specified in
210.12(B) must be provided with AFCI protection. Receptacles installed as
specified in 210.8(B) must have GFCI protection. Both requirements coexist
and must be complied with.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Abstain: 1
Explanation of Abstention:
ORLOWSKI, S.: Please see NAHB’s Comment on Proposal 2-152.


Quote:
2-174 Log #3451 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.12(B))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Larry Logan, Township of Princeton
Recommendation: Add text to read as follows:
Dwellings Units. All 120 volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch
circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling units family rooms, dining
rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a
listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide
protection of the branch circuit.
Substantiation: If, in fact, we are trying to protect the BRANCH CIRCUIT
from arc-fault hazards, then the circuits that are protected by GFCI devices
should not be excluded. I’m sure some members of Code Making Panel 2 must
have seen the result of staples in walls or screws piercing wires that have
caused fires from the arc effect, but may not have been a ground fault. I also
believe that most GFCI protection is provided by a receptacle type device in
homes, thus, leaving the BRANCH CIRCUIT unprotected until the first device.
This proposal would also do away with the litany of room types required to be
protected.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: In the 2008 NEC cycle the panel expanded AFCI to the list
of locations and rooms as shown in 210.12(B). It is the intent of the panel to
continue with AFCI in currently listed locations and rooms through the 2011
NEC. This expansion is independent of the requirements for GFCI.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Abstain: 1
Explanation of Abstention:
ORLOWSKI, S.: Please see NAHB’s Comment on Proposal 2-152.


Quote:
2-177 Log #4713 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.12(B))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
Recommendation: Revise text as follows:
Dwelling Unit (Habitable Areas and closets and hallways) (Family Rooms,
Dining Rooms, Living Rooms, Parlors, Libraries, Dens, Bedrooms, sun rooms,
recreation rooms, closets, hallways or similar rooms or areas.
Substantiation: The terminology similar rooms or areas is confusing, at best.
For example when your dining area is in a dwelling is the kitchen counter top.
This would solve that confusion and also give expanded protection into areas
that only have GFCI protection, which is not a safe guard for the hazards that
AFCI would protect against.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The current wording is based largely on the list from
210.52(A). There have not been significant issues with interpreting the words
of 210.52(A) that have existed for a number of code cycles and as such there
should be no similar interpretation problems with the 210.12(B) wording.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Abstain: 1
Explanation of Abstention:
ORLOWSKI, S.: Please see NAHB’s Comment on Proposal 2-152.
_________________________________________
_________________________
Bryan P. Holland, MCP

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#6876 - 02/13/10 06:15 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Bryan Holland]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
So lets get back to the origional question:

Quote:
Does 210.12(B)require outlets in a laundry room to be Arc-Fault protected?


And the answer is?
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#6877 - 02/14/10 09:43 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
Bryan Holland Online   shocked

Secretary
*****

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 1599
Loc: City of North Port
No.
_________________________
Bryan P. Holland, MCP

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#6878 - 02/15/10 10:39 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: Bryan Holland]
psnorthrup Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Plant City
I Say no,I have to wonder though, if the intent is to protect the branch circuit, then why not the laundry circuit, maybe the members of panel 2 realize that branch circuits that serve outlets with high leakage current devices connected to them are going to be tripping problems until the next generation AFCI breakers or devices are developed

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#6879 - 02/15/10 02:39 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: psnorthrup]
gfretwell
Unregistered


It is still likely you will have GFCI protection on the laundry receptacle if there is a sink in there or if the laundry is in unfinished space. I know it is rare here but most of the country has basements and that is where the laundry ends up being located.

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#6880 - 02/16/10 09:30 PM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: psnorthrup]
COTInspector Offline
Mechanic Member
*****

Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tampa, Florida
I unfortunately have to say no.

Neal Burdick
COT Inspector

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#6897 - 03/11/10 11:24 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: COTInspector]
John Belew Offline
Electrical Inspector/Plans Examiner

Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 56
Loc: Milton,FL
Just recieved this from Building Officials Association of Florida

http://70.40.210.127/pdf/I-List/6450.pdf

Date: Thu Mar 11 2010
Report: 6450
Code: Code Year: 2008
Section: 210.12(B)
Question:
Is it the intent of NEC Article 210.12(B) to require all outlets in a laundry room to be provided with Arc-Fault protected circuits?
Comment:
None.
Answer:
No. NEC Article 210.12(B) requires arc-fault protection in "...family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens,
bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas." A laundry room is not similar to these
rooms.
Commentary:
The NEC commentary specifically excludes, "...kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, garages and outdoors..." from the
requirement. These rooms are more similar to laundry rooms than those specifically listed in NEC Article 210.12(B).
Notice:
The Building Officials Association of Florida, in cooperation with the Florida Building Commission, the Florida Department of Community Affairs, ICC,
and industry and professional experts offer this interpretation of the Florida Building Code in the interest of consistency in their application statewide.
This interpretation is informal, non-binding and subject to acceptance and approval by the local building official.
_________________________
John Belew
Electrical Inspector/Plans Examiner
Santa Rosa Co.
johnb@santarosa.fl.gov

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#6900 - 03/12/10 09:41 AM Re: Arc-Fault [Re: John Belew]
psnorthrup Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Plant City
I think that most of us have agreed with that interpretation

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