In the 2002 NEC ART. 680.24 Junction Boxes and Enclosures for Transformers or Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters.

Sec 680.24(B) Other Enclosures, part (1)Construction,sub section(3),Says provided with an approved seal,such as duct seal at the conduit connection, that prevents circulation of air between the conduit and the enclosures.

Does this apply to wet niche fixtures also? In Art 100 Def. Enclosure is,The case or housing of apparatus...to prevent personnel from accidentally contacting energized parts..... Is the pool light j-box an enclosure,(preventing personnel from energized parts)or apparatus as described in 680.24(B)(1)(3).

If an enclosure duct seal needs to be used as I understand it. I'm leaning toward it being an enclosure (other) let alone the title of the section says junction boxes. In this case wet niche fixtures needing it also falling under the category OTHER.

Okay let me take a stab at this:

I would have to say that it does apply to wet niche because if you look at 680.23(B)(2), wet-niche luminaires, it references you to 680.24. Don't get confused with the fact that 680.24 deals with NO-nich fixtures. In this case another section (wet niche) is telling you to use the requirements of 680.24

The pool light junction box is listed as a "swimming pool light junction box" and it is not an enclosure to my knowledge (someone please correct me out if I'm wrong). An enclosure would have a NEMA rating and examples of enclosure types are listed in table 430-91. For example, an outdoor panel is constructed as a type NEMA 3R enclosure.

You can also use Article 110.11 and 110.12(c) to require the duct seal if you want

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your reply,
680.24 title says"junction boxes.... So in title alone is sort of where I started from.680.23(B)(2)(b)Is dealing with termination not sealing,so I didn't even think more about that one. I believe I can hang my hat on 110.11 and 110.12(C).
Thanks again

What is the question? Are we talking about Swimming pool junction boxes? Or other enclosures for transformers or GFCI receptacles? Trying to combine the two subjects is like trying to compare apples to oranges. They are both fruit, but different types.

The fixture type in this case is not important. What it important is the type junction box or enclosure used when connected to a conduit that connects directly to a forming shell, or mounting bracket of a no-niche fixture.

That statement applies to 680.24(a)&(B) main paragraph. This forming shell is the niche of a wet-niche or dry-niche fixture, and also applies to the mounting bracket of a no-niche fixture.

But lets talk about the fixtures for a moment.
Dry-niche fixture:
The reason why the approved seal is NOT required per 680.24(b)(3) is that the forming shell is a dry-niche. In other words, no water can enter the forming shell or the conduit that extends to the enclosure. That is why more than likely the conduit from the dry-niche fixture will run directly to the breaker panel, with no junction box or enclosure between the fixture and panel. IT'S DRY-NICHE That is also why the fixture can't be opened underwater for relamping. You have to tunnel behind the pool wall or floor to open the forming shell from the back to repair or relamp the fixture.

Wet-niche fixture:
Yep you guessed it the forming shell fills with water so the conduit that extends from the junction box, or enclosure will circulate air-causing water to siphon.

No-niche Fixture:
This type of fixture has no niche. The fixture is surface mount. The mounting bracket is installed on the pool wall and the fixture is connected to the mounting bracket. But it is still a wet fixture, so water can still siphon through the conduit that extends from the junction box, or enclosure.

As I said the fixture type is not important, what is important is the circulation of air that can cause water to siphon. We don't need to worry about this with a swimming pool junction box, (there is nothing in the box) which is why
680.24(a) doesn't require the approved seal. But with 680.24(b)(3) we do need to provide the approved seal in the enclosure of a transformer, or the enclosure of the Intermatic time clock / transformer / breaker panel, or the enclosure of the GFCI receptacle used to protect a 120 volt fixture. ( We would not want water to siphon back into an enclosure with some type of electrical equipment/devices installed ).

With a short note;
The approved seal only is required with enclosures that meet the requirements of 680.24(b) and not when installing the swimming pool junction box that meets 680.24(a).

Don't forget that any enclosure directly connected to a conduit that extends to a forming shell, or mounting bracket of a no-niche fixture must be listed for direct connection by an approved testing laboratory.

Hope this helps, sorry for running on.
Mike

What about any chemical action in the jbox from the chlorine water in the pool. How would you protect the conductors and terminals in the spl j-box from possible effects?

Not required in this case as the conductors being thwn are sutible for a wet locations, oil or gasoline resistant , and gasoline vapor resistant. If the chemicals in the pool water were a problem and we needed to be concerned with them in the swimming pool junction box, than the cord provided by the manufacturer of the fixture that extends from the fixture to the j-box would not be permitted as well. So you already comply with 110.11 & 12.

The part that I have a problem with is the termination of the equipment grounding conductors and the #8 bonding conductor to the terminal block in the j-box. Seems to me that the same listed potting compound used to terminate the #8 bonding conductor in the forming shell of the wet-niche fixture should also be used in the listed swimming pool junction box also.

But again the NEC does not address the issue, so again we don't have to do it! When they say the NEC is the minimum....its the minimum. Oh well I guess that's another subject.

I agree with your interpretation about the #8 bond wire.

I have always required the duct seal anyway. Most contractors seem to put it there. Putting the conductors aside, the spljbox has a wiring terminal block and that could, theoretically, deteriorate.

680.24 title is Junction Boxes and Enlosers for Tranformer or Ground Fault Circuit Interupters. My question was does the conduit to the junction box in between on a wet niche fixture have to be sealed off.Sorry wasn't more specific. I believed it did. Because of section 680.24(B)(1)(3) As I read the replies I am Not sure.
The way it has been interpeted in the past here in my juresdiction when I was in the field was using 680.24(B)because of the direct or should I say the air flow that exists from the wet niche to the tranformer unblocked by any seal in the j-box.Which would lead to air flow to the tranformer. It was believed the corrosive fumes of the chorine will seep into the trans.
Also the cord from a wet niche fixture is UL listed and connections are sealed at the light end are they not? I'm not sure.If they are we are fine at the fixture end. Then with the 8" approved height above water level, stops water from getting into the j-box. The fumes of the chlorine will still get to the stripped off connection on the grounding term of the j-box and under the wire nut and corrode the connection.
It just seems right and I got called on it and I'm tring to find a code ART. to back up what I've been taught.But I might have been taught wrong. Yes the code is a minimum

I've seen the effects of chlorine on wiring and terminals and equipment first hand, so I require the duct seal and I would use Article 110.11 and 110.12(c) to avoid a heated debate - that's my opinion as an inspector.

Yes that is true which is why 680.24(b)(3) requires the approved seal because of the transformer, time, clock, GFCI, equipment, etc... that is installed in the enclosure. This type of equipment/device isn't resistant to the deteriorating effect of the pool water, or water in general that may siphon back.

But with the junction box it is already taken care of by 680.24(a)(2) that requires that the construction of the terminal block or base of the box be an approved corrosion-resistant material. So you see by using a listed swimming pool junction box it is constructed and listed to conform to 110.11 & 12 already that is why using an approved seal isn't found under that section.

In addition duct seal has not been tested or listed to be used to protect connections against the deteriorating effects of the pool water that is why we use a listed potting compound on the #8 bonding conductor termination in the forming shell.

Nick
Thanks for your input, I enjoy debating with you as this makes for some real brain-storming needed for us all to better understand what’s in the NEC but also what the NEC is lacking so we can improve on it. Also it gives all of us the opportunity to find out how things are being done in other jurisdictions. I know I have looked at things differently after reading some of your opinions, and have benefited from your experience.

Please keep us going
Mike

Thanks to both of you.I've been in the electrical trade for 20 odd years and only an inspector for 3. This sight really helps me see the truth and how to bettter interpet the code.

Thanks Mike. I too, like debating the issues. I haven't been here lately - kinda busy - due to a personal issue that will hopefully be resolved by the end of this week.

I wish that more people would post, but I think they don't because the forum exposes what one doesn't know. Me, I don't care if I'm wrong because that is how you learn, by asking questions. Most of the time I am shooting from the hip, but your responses and others' responses force me to dig into the issues further and further. Keeps me on my toes. I am waiting for some technical specs on pool light jboxes at this moment because of this conversation. Thanks to all the BRAVE people who use this forum!

I will concede and agree with you that the seal can't be required from 680, but I would like to think that one has the option to require it due to chemical action that could result, using the articles I previously mentioned. I was just trying to help rasmith out of a jam. I agree that the box is corrosion resistant, but the connections?? Also, there is condensation, especially if the pool is heated, that would expose the connections to the chemicals.

300.7 touches on this, even though the intent I believe is for something else. At any rate, I'm still not finished and will look into this further. !!

No, thank you rasmith! By the way what is your first name?

AMEN!

My first name is Robert I use it because it sounds more professional then Bobby but you guys are more than welcome to call me Bobby. I'm going to try to find some spec's on the j-boxes. I think that the ones in question are thermaguard.Yes this sight works better if pride is thrown away. I guess it is true what they say electricians are arregant. We are the better trade though aren't we!

Update on the pool lt j-box. I wrote the manufactor(Thermacraft) for spec's. In the spec's it doesn't require the j-box to be sealed. Which leaves me to the norm of the way it has been interpeted. By others in my juresdiction to seal the box from vapors via the pool lt. conduit thru the j-box to protect the trans. Some things better left alone I guess. but i believe it to be safer with sealing it. Going with the flow