Pool Water Bonding - IAEI Florida Chapter

You are not logged in. [Log In] IAEI Florida Chapter » Forums » Code Discussion » NEC Forum » Pool Water Bonding

Florida Chapter Officers

BOD Chairman
Nelson Montgomery
President
Dan Prater
1st Vice President
Ted Licitra
2nd Vice President
Mark Deegan
3rd Vice President
Richard Wheelus
Chaplain
Vince Dellacroce
Secretary
Joe DuPriest
Treasurer
Eric L Wasser
Parliamentarian
Tim Wright

Top Posters (30 Days)

Bryan Holland	12
Ruben Rocha	5
inspector32513	3
Nick Sasso	3
ronwampler	2
DickWidera	1

Google Search

Today's Birthdays

No Birthdays

Page 1 of 4

Topic Options

Rate This Topic

#7093 - 04/13/10 02:12 PM Pool Water Bonding
Ron Wampler Apprentice Member Registered: 08/20/08 Posts: 43 Loc: Florida Keys	NEC 680.26(C). Just had a walk-in pool contractor with a catalog cut-sheet for a 'pool water bonding kit'. This NEC change slipped by me although I haven't heard any mention of it. I am having a tuff time believing that a 9 sq. inch piece of stainless steel can bond flowing pool water. Has anyone read the NFPA documentation on this?? Reminds me of an inspector years ago that required a 12" piece of brass pipe above the water heater to bond the water when plastic plumbing was used.
Top

#7106 - 04/13/10 07:05 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Bryan Holland Secretary Registered: 10/05/04 Posts: 1599 Loc: City of North Port	The pool water bonding orignated from a report published by the National Electric Energy Testing Research and Application Center and submitted to the NFPA under proposal 17-122 of the 2007 ROP. In short, the study performed by them basically shows that pool acts musch like a battery. The mix of conductive elements, water, and chemicals will allow the flow of current across the body of a human within the water. Tests showed that an intentional bond to the water elminated this hazard. In most cases, other bonded items such as ladders, handrails, pool ight shells, etc. will serve as the bond. When those items are not present, another means must be provided such as a metal plate imbedded in the side or bottom of the pool, or perhaps a short section of metallic piping within the circulating system. _________________________ Bryan P. Holland, MCP
Top

#7107 - 04/13/10 07:17 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Bryan Holland]
Ruben Rocha Senior Member Registered: 05/24/00 Posts: 764 Loc: Lutz,FL	So with modern pools most have swim outs not ladders. Light niches are becoming plastic. Skimmer is plastic. Most pool filters are plastic. Forgive me fiberglass. Very few hand rails extend into the water from the deck So you are looking for where is 9 square inches of metal now. Looks like another task for the inspector to followup on. And of course as Bryan suggested (metallic pipe) the most prevalent fix will probably be a short piece of metallic pipe at the filter since it will most likely be caught on the final. _________________________ Webmaster IAEI Florida Chapter
Top

#7110 - 04/13/10 07:47 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ruben Rocha]
Raymfl Apprentice Member Registered: 11/05/07 Posts: 32 Loc: Seminole Co, FL	Only pool shells that are not considered conductive need to have the pool water intentionally bonded. Shot, poured and block concrete are considered conductive (680.26(B)(1) and it is not necessary to have an additional 9 sq. in. of metal in contact with the water. Non-conductive pool shells however, must have the water bonded as well as spas installed outside that are non-conductive. Ray
Top

#7112 - 04/13/10 07:58 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Raymfl]
Ruben Rocha Senior Member Registered: 05/24/00 Posts: 764 Loc: Lutz,FL	Okay Ray I tend to agree so add to my comment fiberglass pools/spas and vinyl liner pools. Oh plastic again. _________________________ Webmaster IAEI Florida Chapter
Top

#7113 - 04/13/10 08:09 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ruben Rocha]
Raymfl Apprentice Member Registered: 11/05/07 Posts: 32 Loc: Seminole Co, FL	And without a light or any other metal part that could serve as the required 9 sq. in. Had an outdoor spa that required the bond and that caught the manufacturer off guard. A section of bonded metal piping was used to remedy the situation. Ray
Top

#7114 - 04/13/10 08:14 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Raymfl]
Ruben Rocha Senior Member Registered: 05/24/00 Posts: 764 Loc: Lutz,FL	Humm??? outdoor spa. If it was a spa pack (all electric)usually the heater element is in a short raceway and it is bonded from the factory. Or was this a field built spa? _________________________ Webmaster IAEI Florida Chapter
Top

#7116 - 04/14/10 09:41 AM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ruben Rocha]
TerryR Apprentice Member Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 16 Loc: Key West Florida	I believe that if you have a non conductive pool/spa and a wood or non conductive deck around it you would not need to install the 9 sq. in metal part. _________________________ Terence N Richardson City of Key West Electrical/Mechanical Inspector/Plan Examiner (305)809-3961
Top

#7117 - 04/14/10 12:05 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: TerryR]
Ron Wampler Apprentice Member Registered: 08/20/08 Posts: 43 Loc: Florida Keys	Thanx. That is what I guessed. Now combine this with the 2008 Virginia-Graham-Baker Act that deals with the new anti-entrapment act which is incorporated into the 2007/9 FBC as ANSI/APSP 7 that requires pool pump calculations...
Top

#7118 - 04/14/10 10:27 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Mike Timpanaro Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 04/10/01 Posts: 1101 Loc: Ocklawaha FL.	680.26(c) requires the pool water to be bonded. It doesn't matter what the pool shell or deck is made of. Conductive or non-conductive, the water still needs to be bonded. This shall be permitted by metal parts like handrails, ladders, forming shells of wet-niche fixtures, etc. that are connected to the equipotential bonding grid. If there are no metal parts in the water that are bonded, than 9 sq. in. of metal needs to be installed in the water and bonded to the equipotential bonding grid. _________________________ Michael J Timpanaro Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor Florida
Top

#7122 - 04/15/10 01:03 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
gfretwell Unregistered	680.26(C) says ... Quote: Pool Water. An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806 mm2 (9 in.2) shall be installed in contact with the pool water. This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B) . ... and 680.26(B)(1) says "Conductive Pool Shells", so I think this is a compliant means of bonding the water.
Top

#7129 - 04/15/10 05:20 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
Ruben Rocha Senior Member Registered: 05/24/00 Posts: 764 Loc: Lutz,FL	I agree with you Mike. And until this post I never noticed this change. I guess because it is within the other bonding requirement items mentioned for equipment but kinda a detached paragraph. Maybe the correlating committee will move it where it should be. Someday. Edited by Ruben Rocha (04/15/10 05:29 PM) _________________________ Webmaster IAEI Florida Chapter
Top

#7130 - 04/15/10 05:30 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ruben Rocha]
Ruben Rocha Senior Member Registered: 05/24/00 Posts: 764 Loc: Lutz,FL	Sine this is really a 2008 nec item I will move this topic from the 2005 archived forum to the 2008 nec forum. _________________________ Webmaster IAEI Florida Chapter
Top

#7134 - 04/15/10 09:51 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ruben Rocha]
gfretwell Unregistered	I see nothing in 690.26(C) that says "metal". 680.26(C) says bonding "shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B)". Since the conductive pool shell is required to be bonded in 680.26(B)(1) isn't it one of the "permitted parts"?
Top

#7137 - 04/16/10 01:45 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: ]
Mike Timpanaro Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 04/10/01 Posts: 1101 Loc: Ocklawaha FL.	Plastic is not conductive. (3) Metallic Components. All metallic parts of the pool structure, including reinforcing metal not addressed in 680.26(B)(1)(a), shall be bonded. Where reinforcing steel is encapsulated with a nonconductive compound, the reinforcing steel shall not be required to be bonded. (4) Underwater Lighting. All metal forming shells and mounting brackets of no-niche luminaires shall be bonded. Exception: Listed low-voltage lighting systems with nonmetallic forming shells shall not require bonding. (5) Metal Fittings. All metal fittings within or attached to the pool structure shall be bonded. Isolated parts that are not over 100 mm (4 in.) in any dimension and do not penetrate into the pool structure more than 25 mm (1 in.) shall not require bonding. (6) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the pool water circulating system, including pump motors and metal parts of equipment associated with pool covers, including electric motors, shall be bonded. _________________________ Michael J Timpanaro Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor Florida
Top

#7139 - 04/16/10 04:01 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
psnorthrup Mechanic Member Registered: 04/23/07 Posts: 115 Loc: Plant City	Ruben; I wouldn't look for the TCC to go too near this anytime in the near future, this was a very unpopular change, If you remember it was a proposal for the 2005 cycle, and was rejected, if you remember,when that proposal was read at the Southern Section meeting, it got a big laugh when Mark Ode spoke against it,________________________________________________________________ 17-167 Log #1888 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept ( 680.26(B)(6) ) ________________________________________________________________ Submitter: Frederic P. Hartwell, Hartwell Electrical Services, Inc. Comment on Proposal No: 17-120 Recommendation: The proposal should be rejected. Substantiation: Water cannot be bonded. Suffice it to say that this proposal produced the highest reading on the laugh meter at the IAEI annual meeting, as a nationally recognized NEC expert described the evident futility of making such connections using hydraulically crimped connectors (“but the water just oozed out”) or exothermic welding (“but the water extinguished the fuse”) etc. Metal parts can and should be bonded to provide an equipotential plane in
Top

#7140 - 04/16/10 07:18 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ruben Rocha]
Raymfl Apprentice Member Registered: 11/05/07 Posts: 32 Loc: Seminole Co, FL	Originally Posted By: Ruben Rocha Humm??? outdoor spa. If it was a spa pack (all electric)usually the heater element is in a short raceway and it is bonded from the factory. Or was this a field built spa? Sorry, couldn't get back to reply. The spa was a packaged unit without heat at inspection. Did not do the last inspection to see how the bond was resolved. Usually the tube that houses the element would be large enough to be used as the bond.
Top

#7142 - 04/16/10 07:34 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: psnorthrup]
Ruben Rocha Senior Member Registered: 05/24/00 Posts: 764 Loc: Lutz,FL	Originally Posted By: psnorthrup Ruben; I wouldn't look for the TCC to go too near this anytime in the near future, this was a very unpopular change, If you remember it was a proposal for the 2005 cycle, and was rejected, if you remember,when that proposal was read at the Southern Section meeting, it got a big laugh when Mark Ode spoke against it,________________________________________________________________ 17-167 Log #1888 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept ( 680.26(B)(6) ) ________________________________________________________________ Submitter: Frederic P. Hartwell, Hartwell Electrical Services, Inc. Comment on Proposal No: 17-120 Recommendation: The proposal should be rejected. Substantiation: Water cannot be bonded. Suffice it to say that this proposal produced the highest reading on the laugh meter at the IAEI annual meeting, as a nationally recognized NEC expert described the evident futility of making such connections using hydraulically crimped connectors (“but the water just oozed out”) or exothermic welding (“but the water extinguished the fuse”) etc. Metal parts can and should be bonded to provide an equipotential plane in Right or wrong. ridiculous or not it is in print now! So the AHJ has no choice but to enforce the requirement. So maybe the TCC will amend or change it. Remember the seu temp rating issue a few cycles back? It was a oversight but we lived with it for years. _________________________ Webmaster IAEI Florida Chapter
Top

#7143 - 04/17/10 03:22 AM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
gfretwell Unregistered	I was referring to this Quote: It doesn't matter what the pool shell or deck is made of. Conductive or non-conductive, the water still needs to be bonded. I was speaking to a concrete pool. Sorry for any confusion/
Top

#7150 - 04/19/10 12:50 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: ]
Ron Wampler Apprentice Member Registered: 08/20/08 Posts: 43 Loc: Florida Keys	Yes. I will enforce it. Yes I have enforced other recalled sections...especially the one on depth and spacing of underground raceways and conductors...We all try to do our tasks even NFPA...
Top

#7795 - 09/27/10 11:27 AM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
inspector32513 Lynn Adams Registered: 10/06/05 Posts: 46 Loc: Pensacola, FL	Think of a "plastic" pool or spa. Throw a radio with a two wire cord in the water. The GFCI will only see an increase in crrent flow from hot to neutral. IT WILL NOT TRIP. Now, holding the hand rail that is bonded, step into the water that is energized by the radio. The GFCI will trip. But we have exposed the person to great potential shock hazard. With some kind of bonding of the pool water to the ground system the GFCI will trip and eliminate the hazard before that persond walkq down into the pool while holding the metal hand rail. _________________________ Lynn Adams Chief Electrical Inspector, Escambia County IAEI_Panhandle Division
Top

#7798 - 09/27/10 01:49 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Bryan Holland Secretary Registered: 10/05/04 Posts: 1599 Loc: City of North Port	The bonding required in 680.26 does not serve the purpose of clearing unintentional ground-faults. The code provides "other" means to protect individuals from other hazards. _________________________ Bryan P. Holland, MCP
Top

#7799 - 09/27/10 04:52 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
gfretwell Unregistered	I think the point is the GFCI is going to protect the user but it needs a ground source to operate. Grounding the water will work for that without actually requiring the user to be in the fault circuit.
Top

#7800 - 09/27/10 05:40 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Mike Timpanaro Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 04/10/01 Posts: 1101 Loc: Ocklawaha FL.	Nick.....maybe you should tell everyone about my little pool/power/GFCI demonstration. _________________________ Michael J Timpanaro Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor Florida
Top

#7801 - 09/27/10 08:33 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Nick Sasso Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 11/08/01 Posts: 1438 Loc: West Palm Beach	Mike, I'm not sure what demonstration you are talking about. There are so many. You mean when you threw the live cord into the water? And then stuck out your tongue and touched the water with your tongue when the live cord was in the water, and then drank the water with the cord in it? You mean that presentation?????? WARNING - DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS AT HOME. MIKE IS A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL AND PLAYING WITH ELECTRICITY CAN GET YOU KILLED. I think we should make a video of it and put it on You Tube.....with a disclaimer. Or maybe just make the video for the forum, forget You Tube. Some little kid will see it and God only knows. _________________________
Top

#7802 - 09/28/10 07:35 AM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Mike Timpanaro Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 04/10/01 Posts: 1101 Loc: Ocklawaha FL.	Yep....that's the one. But in addition don't forget the 120 volt extention cord that I put into the glass of water and drank the water with the live cord in it.....was plugged into a GFCI receptacle, and it didn't trip! _________________________ Michael J Timpanaro Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor Florida
Top

#7803 - 09/28/10 11:40 AM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Bryan Holland Secretary Registered: 10/05/04 Posts: 1599 Loc: City of North Port	Electricity is such a funny thing. The smallest little fault can result in a huge explosion yet a major hazard can go unnoticed or uncorrected for years. I guess the best comparison is lightning. It doesn't kill everyone it stikes. It doesn't burn down every building and doesn't always destroy all the electronics in a struck building. Its random. Fortunately, we really don't have to know the extent of the potential hazard, what the hazard may be, or how the hazard will effect the structure or a person. We just have to know what the code reuqires and enusre its complied with. _________________________ Bryan P. Holland, MCP
Top

#7804 - 09/28/10 04:14 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
gfretwell Unregistered	You mitigate the danger quite a bit by having the grounded and ungrounded conductors in the water, close together. That is the primary fault path. It becomes a lot more dangerous if you only have the ungrounded conductor in the water. BTW I bet you used a 2 wire cord. If you have a 3 wire extension cord the GFCI will trip when there is any ionization of the water at all, a given if it is pool water.
Top

#7805 - 09/28/10 06:46 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Nick Sasso Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 11/08/01 Posts: 1438 Loc: West Palm Beach	If you are talking about Mike's demonstration it was a 3-wire cord. The G.F.C.I. does not trip. _________________________
Top

#7806 - 09/28/10 10:49 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Nick Sasso Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 11/08/01 Posts: 1438 Loc: West Palm Beach	I can show everybody. Here is a Mike Timpanero in action, as he is putting on the seminar: And here is Mike Timpanero drinking electrified water: And here is a close-up: I will let Mike explain further. WARNING - DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS AT HOME. MIKE IS A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL AND PLAYING WITH ELECTRICITY CAN GET YOU KILLED. Edited by Nick Sasso (09/29/10 12:41 AM) _________________________
Top

#7807 - 09/28/10 11:35 PM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Nick Sasso]
gfretwell Unregistered	The only way that could be true is if this was distilled water in a perfectly clean glass. A pinch of salt will make that conductive, certainly enough to trip a gfci. My well water (in a drywall bucket) will pass enough power to light a 60w bulb from #10 probes a foot long and 8# apart. I may reproduce that some day, now that video is an easy thing to post. I don't have the numbers anymore but I was only dropping about 50-60 volts through the water.
Top

#7808 - 09/29/10 12:36 AM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Nick Sasso Post-A-Holic Member Registered: 11/08/01 Posts: 1438 Loc: West Palm Beach	It was regular tap water. I feel the need to post this before everyone starts trying it: WARNING - DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS AT HOME. MIKE IS A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL AND PLAYING WITH ELECTRICITY CAN GET YOU KILLED. _________________________
Top

#7811 - 09/30/10 06:07 AM Re: Pool Water Bonding [Re: Ron Wampler]
Bryan Holland Secretary Registered: 10/05/04 Posts: 1599 Loc: City of North Port	I witnessed this same stunt performed by Mike Holt several years ago. It was very dramatic. While discussing gfci protection and the way people get shocked, he walks out into the crowd and takes a pitcher of ice water off one of the attendee's tables. He proceeds to dip his relocatable power tap (plug strip) into the pitcher of water. Plugged into the strip was his laptop and projector. And sure enough, he takes a big gulp right from the pitcher. He then proceeds to pull the strip out of the water, shakes it off a bit and sets it back on the ground. No shock, no power disruption, nothing. I remember wondering how many of the people in attendance were going to go back home and try this same thing but not get it right. Over the years, I have thought about this demonstration when instructing a class or teaching an apprenticehip course, but have never really mustered a real desire (courage) to try it. _________________________ Bryan P. Holland, MCP
Top