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#7108 - 04/13/10 07:22 PM 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires
thomas Offline
Apprentice Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 7
Loc: florida
I have come across a pool without a #8 bonding jumper from the forming shell to the deck box, the dwelling is built in the 80's.

Was this wiring method used in the 80's?

Is there a listed low voltage lighting system not requiring grounding available?

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#7109 - 04/13/10 07:25 PM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: thomas]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
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Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Sorry I hosed up your original post Thomas.
To everyone I was asked to move this post and I have never split out part of a topic. So I deleted this question in error.
So now someone can reply again.

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#7111 - 04/13/10 07:54 PM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: Ruben Rocha]
Ruben Rocha Offline
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Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Someone posted something similar in your old post.
But anyway.
What is the raceway from the lite niche to the deck box?

If it was metallic like brass which was used in the early days. The brass conduit extended from the niche to the j box. And the box itself was bonded.
Then over the years the pool companies got a little cheap ( brass got very expensive)and used a short piece of brass say 18" off of the niche and a jweaver clamp was used on the nipple to connect with the bond around the deck then extended with pvc to the jbox.

I am not saying it was to code but it was an accepted practice.

But in all likely situations. Since the pool was built in the 80's.
I would guess the #8 was in the raceway when built.
I don't think there was a potting compound that was a listed product at that time but was still required. Most people used caulking.
Then over time probably the fixture was replaced and they yanked out the #8 insulated bond to get the new cord in the pipe.

I do know in the mid 80's American standard one manufacturer of the pool lite's had some defective fixtures that when the lamp burnt out or shorted it destroyed the thermal protection device in the fixture.
Which resulted in a replaced fixture, cord and all since it is all one assembly.
I know this because I was wiring about 9000 pools a year at the time as a contractor and I replaced thousands of lite fixtures under warranty for American standard.

Now I will admit I have never used a deck box so I am not sure where the bond connection would be. Could be on the outside of the box in the concrete.
I always used a above ground pool lite jbox.
I never wanted to mess with the wax junk to seal the box.

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#7115 - 04/13/10 11:07 PM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: Ruben Rocha]
gfretwell
Unregistered


I was the first responder and my suggestion is to pull out the light and see if there is a lug available in the niche.
The water should be warm enough by now wink
I am with Ruben. I haven't seen a real "deck box" in years. They are usually an elevated box over in the yard, outside the screen cage or near the pump sitting 15"-18" above the water line with a 1" PVC raceway going to the niche. If you can get to the lug in the niche and you have this arrangement with the PVC pipe you should be able to pull in the #8. You probably have to pull out the lamp cord and pull them both back in at the same time. The ugly part is I am not sure if there is a listed potting compound that will work under water so you may have to drain a couple of feet of water out of the pool. That answer will come from the potting compound instructions.

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#7119 - 04/14/10 10:49 PM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: ]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

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Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
Ruben is correct. Years ago before PVC was permitted by the code, the bond from the forming shell of the wet-niche fixture to the listed j-box or deck box was by way of brass RMC. The requirement for the #8 bonding jumper came into the code in the 1971 edition when PVC was now permitted. 680-20(b)(1).
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Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#7127 - 04/15/10 05:11 PM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: Mike Timpanaro]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
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Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Wow. 1971
I guess I am getting old.
I did not realize it was that long ago.

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#7135 - 04/16/10 09:55 AM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: Ruben Rocha]
thomas Offline
Apprentice Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 7
Loc: florida
Well I stuck my head in the water, and yes the water is still cold, good thing I did not go all of the way in.... There are provisions for a #8 ground wire but i need to find a screw from a pool company, I will get them to drain the pool to niche and install a #8.

Just when you think you seen it all,
The more you look for proper installations, the more you will find Hazardous installations especially in remodels..

Thank you
Thomas

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#7136 - 04/16/10 01:42 PM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: thomas]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
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Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
Next time use a mirror..won't get your head wet.
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




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#7141 - 04/16/10 07:19 PM Re: 680.23 (B) (2) (b) Wet - Niche Luminaires [Re: thomas]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
*****

Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Originally Posted By: thomas
Well I stuck my head in the water, and yes the water is still cold, good thing I did not go all of the way in.... There are provisions for a #8 ground wire but i need to find a screw from a pool company, I will get them to drain the pool to niche and install a #8.

Just when you think you seen it all,
The more you look for proper installations, the more you will find Hazardous installations especially in remodels..

Thank you
Thomas


Memory tells me it is a 10/24 stainless steel screw standard thread not sae fine.(Don't quote me on that)
About a 1/2" long. Longer will work fine.

If you go with like a a zinc coated screw it will be gone in about a year or less. Unless the potting compound has perfectly encapsulated the connection.Besides most of the lugs are stainless anyway.
If this is a home project I would suggest that when your pull in the bond to squirt some silicone caulking in the 1" conduit and let it set up before you reset the fixture. To eliminate water leaks through the conduit. About 4 pumps with the caulking gun.
You can also use a epoxy putty mix.
You won't believe how much the conduit can leak.
Water of course. LOL

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