I have a company that is planning on and is already installing Solar-Operated Centrifugal Surface Pumps for swimming pool applications. The system consists of 2 or more PV modules on the roof, a controller, and a DC pump.

Here's the problem. The solar PV modules are TUV listed and approved by the Florida Solar Energy Center. The pump and controller are manufactured by LORENTZ of Germany and DO NOT have a NRTL listing. However, the FSEC approved the use of these with the solar PV system.

So, I don;t want to approve the installation of the pump and controller without a listing. The installer wants me to accpet the fact hat it has a CE listing and was approved by the FSEC.

What say you...

Thanks...

Bryan - In the end I think you are the AHJ and able to accept the installation. I personally would feel comfortable if the state commission recognizes the system. Truly could go either way but if they have been listed by at least some testing lab why not?

I believe that under current federal law, it requires a SYSTEM listing.

I would not accept it. And then I would provide the contractor with several companies that could field - list the system.

If you don't do that, this "system" may pop up everywhere, like dandelions, and then you will be in a situation where you approved something that really wasn't meant to be approved in that manner. And it will fester, and multiply.

Me, I don't like things that fester and multiply. It needs the right system label on it.

Bryan, I agree with Nick, it needs a listing by an NRTL and we all know CE is not that. I wouldn't accept anything approved by FSEC as they are not a NRTL.

Thanks guys, I agree!

Good Morning Bryan, I agree with Nick and Paul, that equipment needs a NRTL listing, we all know that CE is a self examination, and seen too much that is unsafe,

Thanks for the re-inforcement!

Bryan I agree also...execpt I want to point out one item:

As you can see testing from a NRTL is not required by code....you as the authority may approve equipment or material without a NRTL. Of course we all require NRTL testing so that we don't have to take the responsibility.

Thanks Mike.

My problem is that the system is mostly self-contained. The pump and controller are factory wired leaving only the PV modules and wiring to be field installed and connected.

I have requested the contractor provide positive verification of a NRTL listing and/or provide field evaluation.

Here's a link to the product for your review:

http://www.lorentz.de/offgrid/en/products/surfacepumps/badutop

That's some cool stuff...but...I'm thinking of how the field evaluation can work when bonding for pool pump motors would be required by 680.26 and there is no provision for this type of equipment in that code section?

I understand that per the manufacturers specs there is:


I think I would want more info even if you get a field evaluation. What do you think?

There are American manufacturers of these systems so I assume there are listed products.
I have been looking at one from an Arizona company but I admit the listing is less than clear in their advertising.

That seems to be the biggest hurdle when dealing with all this new technology. This particular product fits, and likely must adhere, to several categories of listing compliance. It is for pool equipment, it has a controller, it is a motor, it is a pump, it is Direct Current, so on and so forth.

Here's another example of a product that was recently installed here in the city:

http://en.sunrain.com/Products/One_Pipes_Inlet-Outlet/

Again, this product has no listing but does have some sort of "certification" from a US based solar organization. Many comsumers are being "tricked" into thinking this means safe...

Bryan look at FS 553.8425(2)-(7) see what you think

PS,

I don't believe that would apply here. That is the statute, same as the Florida Administrative Code for product approval -- to demonstrate compliance with the structural windload requirements of the Florida Building Code. This would be products that bear a Notice of Acceptance, which is usually a Miami-Dade NOA.

As a side note about product approval, that is also a slippery slope. What happens with that language in real life -- is you get a letter from an engineer stating "it's OK because I said so" without any test report from an approved testing laboratory and rational/comparative analysis. I have rejected such letters in the past. Of course, this was not providing the expected level of "customer service" to someone who was not complying with law or F.A.C., so I was being unreasonable. But when all is said and done, I did my job. To change a Notice of Acceptance installation requirement, it must go back to the Florida Building Commission for approval. It is not an instant process.

Back to these PV products - I hear everyone that buys them gets a free toy to take home to their kids!

We accept FSEC certification:

FSEC is one of the nation's leading testing and certification laboratories for solar products and equipment. The center’s expertise is based on nearly 30 years experience conducting solar energy testing and certification programs, the accreditation of PowerMark Corporation (PMC) and partnerships with such national associations as the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE), The National Association of State Energy Offices (NASEO), and the Solar Rating & Certification Corporation (SRCC).

Solar Products Tested and Certified by FSEC
Click on each of the four solar equipment types below to view testing data.

Testing Services
Because testing solar equipment can be extremely costly, companies find that maintaining lab equipment, training personnel, and dedicating the time for testing can slow their products from getting to the marketplace. Outsourcing your product testing to FSEC assures that you get accurate results, receive independent verification for test data, and reduce your product testing budget.

Florida Solar Standards
In accordance with Florida Law (§377.705, F.S.) [35KB, Adobe Acrobat PDF], the Florida Solar Energy Center is charged to “develop and promulgate standards for solar energy systems manufactured or sold in the state based on the best currently available information. . .” and "establish criteria for testing performance of solar energy systems. . .".

This Law was originally implemented through Florida Administrative Code 6C7-8. However, the change in Florida University System governance in 2003 to a constitutional Board of Governors means that the law is now implemented through UCF Regulation 6C7-8, which may be viewed and downloaded here.

Regulation 6C7-8 refers to a number of FSEC Standards that are incorporated in the Regulation by reference. This web site provides copies of these FSEC Standards, which describe the procedures and requirements for rating and certification. It is divided into two sections — one for solar thermal systems and one for photovoltaic (PV) systems. To view the standards, select one of the areas list below.



FSEC offers testing and certification services for a number of solar devices including:

Photovoltaic Modules
Photovoltaic Systems
Solar Thermal Collectors
Solar Thermal Systems
We encourage you to contact us if you are interested in any of our services. Visit any of the technology-specific links above to view more specific information about those products.

The State of Florida established this certification. So, I see it as being vaild for use in Florida.

Jonathan Peer
Senior Electrical Inspector
Electrical Plan Reviewer
City of Cape Coral, Fl

I have been contact with the FSEC. They are telling me they only test the equipment for performance and the certification is NOT to be considered as a substitute for listing criteria by a NRTL.

To clarify, the PV modules being used for the system in question IS LISTED and has been certified by the FSEC. It is the pump motor and controller that IS NOT listed.

I do not believe it is within the scope of the FSEC to test this type of equipment.

Bryan,

Since you have contacted the FSEC and they have specifically not included this system, then this is the same thing as trying to install any other non-listed electrical equipment.

It needs to be certified by a NRTL.

Jonathan

Fascinating technology. This is a 72 VDC motor and regular pool pump with basket strainer and 2" plumbing!!! We had all better get on the Code train for this stuff. We need this sort of presentations at meetings. This entire installation falls under NEC and DEFINITELY requires NRTL listing and installation manuals in English and Espanol...Solar and Green are the same word in Florida and this technology is going to soar...No Way would I accept this without NRTL...maybe not even a field listing but cost would likely prevent that scenario...$2000 dollars to field list a car wash vacuum in the Keys...

I have been looking at one of these systems for almost a year. I spent some time trying to get an answer why Florida was not giving a rebate on these since it is probably the best use of solar PV I have seen but they do not do it. Now the whole program is broke so it is academic.
The big advantage of this system is it just runs slower when the PV output is low but you are still moving water. The "storage" is just in the water you have cleaned. It really looks like a simple way to save money.