MENU
Florida Chapter Officers
BOD Chairman
Dan Prater
President
Ted Licitra
1st Vice President
Mark Deegan
2nd Vice President
Richard Wheelus
3rd Vice President
Vince Dellacroce
Chaplain
James Douglas
Secretary
Joe DuPriest
Treasurer
Eric L Wasser
Parliamentarian
Tim Wright
Who's Online
0 registered (), 4 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
ddasa, mcfs509, Spike, dsf, Christoper
519 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Nick Sasso 5
Bryan Holland 5
Heinz R. 2
TerryR 1
Mike Timpanaro 1
Google Search
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#7972 - 01/16/11 07:32 PM odd arrangement for double-pole breakers
Heinz R. Offline
Apprentice Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Florida
I hope someone can help me understand what I’m looking at. Please refer to the partial picture of a main residential panel below. I don't have a web page so it seems that I cannot include an image but I would be happy to e-mail the image to anyone interested. I hope that my word picture is enough.
I have not taken the panel cover off (yet) to see what the OCPDs in question look like from the rear.
Each of the top two branch circuit breakers appears to be a double pole breaker and each breaker has one 20A and one 40A breaker in the same housing. Both the water heater and the range are 240V appliances and each is served by the two corresponding halves of each of the breakers. Both breakers have handle ties, the inside 40A ones for the range (one pole from each breaker) are linked with looks like a more or less conventional handle tie, and the outside 20A ones (again, one pole from each breaker) for the water heater are linked with what I think is a made tie. It may not be but I haven’t seen anything like this before.
My question is why would this system be used instead of the more conventional way, one double-pole 20A and one double pole 40A breaker? Why would one even use a double pole breaker with different ratings for each of the poles? I didn’t even know such beasties were manufactured.
I’m sorry folks but my ignorance is vast and I hope for some enlightenment

Top
#7973 - 01/16/11 07:46 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Bryan Holland Offline

Secretary
*****

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 1622
Loc: City of North Port
I bet you are talking about one of these:


http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&...2G3CSrr5l6KfUjQ

If so, the only real purpose is to simply save space. You basically get 4, 1-pole circuits or 2, 2-pole circuits using just two slots in the panelboard.

So imagine you have full panelboard but still have load capacity and want to add another circuit or two. This breaker would allow you to do that...
_________________________
Bryan P. Holland, MCP

Top
#7974 - 01/16/11 07:48 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
gfretwell
Unregistered


It is just a double piggy back breaker. (Two 240v circuits in 2 slots.) I have seen them from SqD.

Top
#7975 - 01/16/11 09:23 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Nick Sasso Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1451
Loc: West Palm Beach
Agree. I used to call them "a quad breaker." Purpose is to save space or to create space if the panel is maxed. Quad breakers for different manufacturers may look slightly different but basically still have the center tie and the outer tie.
_________________________

Top
#7976 - 01/17/11 10:07 AM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
Just a note to remember:

That Quad breaker, like the single pole twin, may only be used in panels that have the notched buss or v-slot as I call it. The panel style will be a 30/40 circuit. A straight 30 circuit, or straight 40 circuit panel does not have a notched buss so the Quad breaker, or single pole twin, will have to be modified to fit since is is manufactured with a rejection feature. As we all know that is a violation of 110.3b.


Edited by Mike Timpanaro (01/17/11 10:13 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




Top
#7977 - 01/17/11 11:37 AM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
gfretwell
Unregistered


The older SqD piggyback breaker is stacked in line with full sized operating handles and can be paired with the regular handle ties (or the 10 penny nail trick). The condo I had in Treasure Island (Pinellas Co) had a panel with these in it from day one.
I never understood why they put in such a small panel but that was 1967 and things were looser then I guess.

Top
#7978 - 01/17/11 01:49 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: ]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
*****

Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Today, even the square D piggybacks have a rejection tab. But a hacksaw will take care of that for the old panels.

Just kidding on recommending cutting the tab. laugh

Top
#7979 - 01/17/11 03:24 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
gfretwell
Unregistered


I have seen a few with the hook cut off.

Top
#7980 - 01/17/11 04:03 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
*****

Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
I am guilty as charged from past years.
Prior to knowing better.

Top
#7981 - 01/17/11 05:33 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Heinz R. Offline
Apprentice Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Florida
Thanks to all of you for the enlightening information. Yes, Brian, it was exactly one of those. And yes, the panel was maxed out. And the panel was in a mobile home, and I've been in only a few of those.
Curiously, I live in a double-wide but I have the luxury of one whole spare slot so I don't have any 'quads.'
Thanks to all for once again broadening my appreciation of the wide, wide electrical real world.
Heinz R.

Top
#7982 - 01/17/11 05:42 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Nick Sasso Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1451
Loc: West Palm Beach
Thanks for posting the question. You brought back memories of when I was back in business and Bryant panelboards and I believe they had the "quads" as well. I think I even used a couple here and there, if memory serves me correctly.
_________________________

Top
#7983 - 01/18/11 01:02 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
*****

Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Quads were also popular in split buss panels. In the top half when people added central air.

I know it was wrong back then also, more that six devices, but that is what people did to get out of installing another panel or a sub panel.

Top
#7984 - 01/18/11 01:06 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
psnorthrup Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Plant City
I remember those well, even installed a few, never liked them much, felt like cheating the system

Top
#7985 - 01/18/11 02:31 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: psnorthrup]
Ruben Rocha Offline
Senior Member
*****

Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 767
Originally Posted By: psnorthrup
I remember those well, even installed a few, never liked them much, felt like cheating the system

I know what your saying.
And of course it was only a murray breaker available for quads.
And some old bulldog ge breakers.

So out comes the hacksaw, sidecutters and etc to make it fit on the buss.
I wonder how many have failed over the years due to modifying the breaker to fit.

Top
#7986 - 01/18/11 07:18 PM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
Mike Timpanaro Offline

Post-A-Holic Member
****

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: Ocklawaha FL.
Many years ago it was thought that the mark of a good electrician was one who could make things work. Like making breakers fit in panels where they were not designed to fit in. And I did it myself.

Back in 1987 when I became an electrical inspector for The New York Board of Fire Underwriters I learned that this is not proper. Now when I teach at my seminars, I tell everyone that the mark of a good electrician is one who reads the directions, and the manufacturer's label.


Edited by Mike Timpanaro (01/18/11 07:19 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Michael J Timpanaro
Inspector/Plans Examiner/CEU Instructor
Florida




Top
#7988 - 01/19/11 08:31 AM Re: odd arrangement for double-pole breakers [Re: Heinz R.]
psnorthrup Offline
Mechanic Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Plant City
I think that those of us who worked in the field, all did some things that at the time seemed clever and inovative and as Mike said made us good electricians able to adapt to adverse situations, but looking back are things that we as inspectors now know are unacceptable practices

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



Active Topics
May Meeting Minutes
by Bryan Holland
05/17/12 02:05 PM
May Meeting Announcement
by Bryan Holland
05/08/12 07:58 AM
Visual Alarms
by Nick Sasso
05/02/12 03:55 PM
Nonmetallic Extensions
by Nick Sasso
04/25/12 03:33 PM
Selective Coordination of Circuit Breakers
by Heinz R.
04/24/12 05:03 PM
May
M Tu W Th F Sa Su
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Featured Member
JBD
JBD
Registered: 03/20/10
Posts: 0
Forum Stats
519 Members
29 Forums
1892 Topics
8569 Posts

Max Online: 53 @ 03/30/12 04:16 PM
Uploaded Pictures
Can You Spot The Electrical Violation?
1948 Signalite Fuse
Portable Generator Grounding
2011 Florida Gulf Coast Division - Seminar
Knob and tube in industrial application
1920's Duplex Radio Outlet
Random Gallery Image