Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.

Forgive if I am breaking any forum protocol by posting a question. I am not an inspector. I twist wire nuts for a living, so I guess I am an inspectee. I generally post at Mike Holt, I just read here.

I am posting here because my question is related to Florida NEC interpretation specifically.

Are the wall and counter top receptacles in a dining room considered a SABC?

I am referring to 210.52(B)(1). I say they are.

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.

I am in a dispute with a gentlemen from FL on another forum who is a HI and he says they are/can be considered general purpose.

This the thread if your are bored. I am Derek Guridi.
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspe...en-circuit.html

You are only breaking protocol by naming him. Perhaps go into your post...and edit out the name so we can respond.

Understood,sorry,done.

Just to add, I am not a HI.

This is me at MH.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/member.php?u=105016

The code REQUIRES two small appliance circuits. You can have more. It also states that the receptacles in the kitchen, dining, breakfast nook be on these circuits and the circuits must be 20 amp.The reason they exception the clock plug is that it is not one of the required outlets per 210.52(A). They also allow you to run a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the refrigerator.
Arc fault is required in the dining room & nook outlets and ground fault for the counter top receptacles. While they will not interfere with one another (so I am led to believe), most of the electrical contractors in my jurisdiction run a separate dining/nook circuit to avoid problems/issues.
You can run 20 amp circuits anywhere you like for general branch circuits but they are not SABC's if they are not confined to the kitchen/dining/nook.

Wow...I just skimmed the entire thread in that other forum, so I'm really hesitant to respond. But you were good enough to take out the name (no pickin' on anyone here) so I am going to add my 2 cents. But I'm not getting in the middle -- so this may be my last comment: I would say that the dining room IS what you refer to as a "SABC" (small appliance branch circuit); I would not call it general purpose. But there's more...

All parties seem to agree on the fact that it is 20 amp, you all cite the same code, agree that it can be on with the kitchen counter, etc., etc., so I don't see the issue other than how someone may refer to it. You would all agree on the appropriate code as how to wire that particular room. So is there really a dispute here? If I plug in a vaccuum, does the vaccuum automatically become a small appliance? If I plug in my computer, does the computer become a small appliance? Or am I using a small appliance circuit as a general use circuit? See my point? We could go on and on and on.

Technically speaking, I do believe it to be a small appliance circuit. If I had to produce technical writing (a report or something similar in nature) then that is what I would call it.

Okay, I have looked at the post and I have lost track of what the real issue is???
I don't recall anything that prohibits me from adding a gfci to say a general purpose outlet nor any of the required circuits. Such as a small appliance circuit.
In my opinion you would just be exceeding the minimum requirements.
In fact I could, say add a gfci to the laundry circuit. Or a living room outlet.

I understand 20 amp circuits.

Are the wall and counter top receptacles in a dining on a SABC?

The circuit in question is confined to the dining room.
I know that this circuit can go to the other specified areas in 210.52(B) and no others.

This is what I am saying. What a person plugs into a SABC, does not define the circuit.

PS. Yeah it a zoo over there.

I understand your point, but it has nothing to do with my question.

Okay, let me try this.

I install a 20 amp circuit for the required wall and counter top receptacles in a dining room and I extend the circuit to the living room.

One of you all red tag me for non compliance.

What is your code reference?

Is there a poll option on this forum?

Any and all circuits for receptacle outlets are considered small appliance branch circuits. This would be from use of 210.52(B) which is titled "Small Appliance", thus the wording that follows applies to small appliance circuits.
It has always been my understanding that the NFPA created the small appliance circuit as the use of electrical gadgets in the kitchen and dining areas exploded in the 50's. Kitchens have blenders, toasters, etc. and warming trays and such get used in eating areas. It is of no consequence if the dining circuit is on a GFCI, the code is mute on that.
Jumper, the lights in the dining room can go to the living room but not the receptacles. See 210.52(B)2 "No other outlets"

Yep. I agree. Now I gotta convince that crazy HI.

If you want to get nitty gritty:

I think everyone knows this. Am I unclear on my parameters for this install?

Well gentlemen and ladies it seems the person I was in dispute with has conceded that he was in error. Post #74.

Thank you for allowing me to post here, I will go back to being a silent member again.

Hey Jumper, No need to be a silent member. We welcome all questions and comments from everyone. That is what this form is all about. I have learned alot from this form over the years. I hope you can attend an IAEI division meeting in your area sometime.

Thank you, but as I am not an inspector nor do I live in FL, I think it would be not be appropriate for me to comment here, I shall read only. I have been here for 1 1/2yrs.

Your final post in the other forum cleared up my problem with understanding what the real issue was with the home inspector.

But anyway don't be a lurker here. This site is all about education and the NEC.
You don't need to be a inspector to contribute.
The nice part here is the inspectors are here to assist anyone that is involved with the NEC.
And some people here are not inspectors at all.
Such as myself
So feel free to ask and participate.

Similar to the way IEEE restricts the use of the title "engineer" I think our trade organizations should be able to restrict who can call themselves "inspector".

These people are "home consultants"

Yeah, that is a better word then what I usually call them.

I am sure there are some who know their stuff, but many do not. Basically handy men with a business license.

I had to get a HI report for my mortgage. He noted in his report one breaker had two wires under a lug, but totally missed the fact that 6 NM-B cables and a USE feeder came through one 2" knockout. BTW this was old USE, not new dual rated and obviously not in conduit-open wiring. Pitiful.

He missed other stuff also, but you all get the point.

Okay, rant over. Back to our regular scheduled programming.

Cool. Thank you. I like MH forum a lot, but I wish there were more inspectors there to balance out opinions. MH is way too top heavy with EEs, ECs, and plain sparkies. I found this site from a Bryon Holland post.